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Earliest back mount vest


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#1 Jerry Holway

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 01:13 PM

For those of you interested in the history of the Steadicam, I thought we ought to set the record straight on who made the 1st back mount vest.

It was Cinema Products... and we've all seen the photo!

But we we looking at the arm and other aspects of it.

So here it is - hard back, only straps in front... functions like current back mount (should be called hard back, BTW).

Jerry

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#2 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 01:34 PM

functions like current back mount (should be called hard back, BTW).



Why should we not call it a Back Mount?
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#3 Jerry Holway

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 02:55 PM

functions like current back mount (should be called hard back, BTW).



Why should we not call it a Back Mount?

Because, just IMHO, the mounting point is irrelevant; it's the hard back or the hard front that makes the most difference between the types of vests (see GB's dual mount version of the Klassen vest...). The front mount's mount is on the side, and the arm attaches to the side in the "back mount" vest as well.

Jerry
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#4 Erwin Landau

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:50 PM

With all due respect...

That picture isn't the greatest to use for that argument as Garrett himself referred to the extinct "Mastodon trunk" arm set up and Cinema Products $700K first attempt of a prototype as "excruciatingly painful" and "it didn't work!" and resulted in abandonment and total redesign and has not been seen since...

And the Arm is still attached at the front part of the "shell" vest.

We might have to add a third category of vest/harness as not all "Backmounts" have a hard back and not all "Hardbacks" are back mounted. But that would be pure silliness.

As a former owner (six years) of Walter Klassen's fine Product. I have seen many generation starting with the S&M Leather version (That Walter and Daniel Sauve came up with) with leg straps and permanently side attached socket block but no hard back, but that is as close as this two vests (the mentioned one as well as the above pictured) are related. The latest Klassen Harness and the latest Ultra2 Vest have only in common that they are body mounted and supporting a camera stabilizer and that's it. We can argue about physics forever, but the fact is that there are several hundred of his babies out there and getting used every day.

As the person that came up with the design (together with Daniel) and for the longest time was the first and only manufacturer of that specific style harness in mass production and was nowhere infringing on any patents past or present I can really not see you take the right away from Walter Klassen to name his product pretty much any way he wants to.

One failed prototype, 35 years ago will not change that.

Sincerely,

Erwin
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#5 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:08 PM

functions like current back mount (should be called hard back, BTW).



Why should we not call it a Back Mount?

Because, just IMHO, the mounting point is irrelevant; it's the hard back or the hard front that makes the most difference between the types of vests (see GB's dual mount version of the Klassen vest...). The front mount's mount is on the side, and the arm attaches to the side in the "back mount" vest as well.

Jerry



Well that's not what Walter Klassen and Daniel Sauve decided to name it. Besides as a friend said to me earlier today, That ship pretty much sailed years ago.
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#6 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:11 PM

With all due respect...

>snip<

As the person that came up with the design (together with Daniel) and for the longest time was the first and only manufacturer of that specific style harness in mass production and was nowhere infringing on any patents past or present I can really not see you take the right away from Walter Klassen to name his product pretty much any way he wants to.

One failed prototype, 35 years ago will not change that.

Sincerely,

Erwin



Well damn you made my post redundant....
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#7 Erwin Landau

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 09:27 PM

Oh darn I forgot to attach a picture... How could I...

Oh by the way the "Front Back Loader" the backmount with the front mount attachment... I did try that one. The problem with that specific one is that it worked perfectly for Garrett and I know of several that use it as is for there daily work. I found it very much on the painful side, as the carbon front door with the Socket Block and the entire weight of the rig hanging of it made it bend inward and giving me a several day souvenir of a blue bruse. But that's just me.


Okay, so here a true Backmount...

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#8 Louis Puli SOC

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:41 PM

Hi everyone
Erwin what can you tell us about the 3 section 3a lower section of an arm and the full Pro arm .Is this Howards new mix and match look for the AR cool .
Thanks
Louis Puli
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#9 RonBaldwin

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:25 AM

wow, that 3 section arm thing is insane! Looks like the weakest link (2 or 3 arm section) is taking the most weight/torque?
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#10 Erwin Landau

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:39 AM

Nothing really... I took these pix back in 2005... since it's the first time you have ever seen or heard of it... it's obviously a DOA... or would you pay $33K for just an arm?

I just wanted to make my point about the vest...
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#11 Louis Puli SOC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:54 AM

Nothing really... I took these pix back in 2005... since it's the first time you have ever seen or heard of it... it's obviously a DOA... or would you pay $33K for just an arm?

I just wanted to make my point about the vest...


Yes I do know guys how have paid $33K for a pro arm and $30for a tb6 B)
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#12 Iain Baird

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:15 AM

For those of you interested in the history of the Steadicam, I thought we ought to set the record straight on who made the 1st back mount vest.

It was Cinema Products... and we've all seen the photo!

But we we looking at the arm and other aspects of it.

So here it is - hard back, only straps in front... functions like current back mount (should be called hard back, BTW).

Jerry


Honestly I don't see any similarity at all between this vest and a back mount vest. It has a hard back, so what? The arm is coming out of his upper chest!!
It's no secret that you're not a fan of the Back Mount Vest Jerry (see Steadicam Operators Handbook for repeated bashing) but I feel it belittles the hard work that Daniel and Walter put it making a new and innovative product by comparing it to THIS? and taking credit away from where credit is due.
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#13 Jerry Holway

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 08:52 AM

Honestly I don't see any similarity at all between this vest and a back mount vest. It has a hard back, so what? The arm is coming out of his upper chest!!
It's no secret that you're not a fan of the Back Mount Vest Jerry (see Steadicam Operators Handbook for repeated bashing) but I feel it belittles the hard work that Daniel and Walter put it making a new and innovative product by comparing it to THIS? and taking credit away from where credit is due.


Geez, guys-

All I was say was that the restraining method of a hard back vest has been around a long time (and I learned of this fact yesterday, talking to GB about another issue relating to the early days), and I thought it was, well, amusing.

That it was abandoned probably had a lot to do with the arm and where it was mounted, so they reverted to GB's original (hard front) design..., and BTW, the arm was attached to the rigid back...

And my post has has nothing to do with, or taking away from, the successful and practical implementation of Daniel's or Walter's designs. Just a little factoid.

Jerry
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#14 Michael Tsimperopoulos SOC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 03:26 PM

Regarding the three-section arm…

This was from May’97, in Venice, Italy.

Attached File  1997_05_11_Masters_Weekend_Venice_17.jpg   109.3KB   182 downloads

The idea of the three-section-arm was pretty exciting (wider range of booming), but in real life it seemed a little too complicated. The three sections never quite “followed” each other in synchronization, and one of the sections would lock-up frequently and stay there. Also, navigating the sled around your body on an arm with five pivoting points (socket block, three hinges and an arm post) was not fun, and squeezing through a tight corner even less so. Admittedly, when fully boomed up, the gain in height was impressive, but on the lower end, the entire thing went lower than you would be able to grab it from somewhere and control it (although perhaps an additional handle would help). Even picking up the sled from its dock was an adventure in itself…

Well…maybe this issue deserves its own thread (in case someone wishes to search this thing someday).
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#15 Michael Tsimperopoulos SOC

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 03:28 PM

Attached File  1997_05_11_Masters_Weekend_Venice_14.jpg   109.18KB   155 downloads
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