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Need lightweight outboard frameline generator


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#1 Charles Papert

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:00 PM

Current flying the Genesis and have come up across a new situation: we have a few shots here and there where I am actually allowed to cut the cord to the DIT tent and transmit in SD, due to impossible cable runs. However this means that we cannot generate framelines in-camera--the HD signal passes to the downconverter/HDSDI output clean for recording purposes. And sadly my PRO does not have the capability of generating framelines internally, I do it on the TB6.

Panavision has a box but it is heavy. So I'm looking for something appropriately lightweight to put on the rig for these times when we go wireless. We rented an analog unit but the lines kept drifting and it required too much attention. We also rented the XCS unit but it is built to be dropped off a building and I'd like something lighter if possible.

Another idea is to pull the video out of the TB6 downstream of the frameline generator, I have some idea that this can be done (is there an output in the multipin connector?) but this will include my electronic level of course. I might forego the level for these shots, or have it taped over at the most critical monitors. Certainly we could tape out the monitors for framelines also, but I'd like to avoid this as we are shooting 2.40 and protecting 1:78 (don't ask) and I don't want the DP to not see the whole frame.

Any thoughts would be helpful.
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#2 Erwin Landau

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:24 PM

On my rig I have a separate frameline generator to the addition of the 2 in the TB-6, called the UNO that creates an exclusive Frameline or Mattebox for the Video Village. Mine is build into the rig as a board addition, but Greg used to have them stand alone. Or if he doesn't maybe he can make something like that... (You rented the XCS DUO right? that's quite a box, the same as the TR-1 Box from his receiver).

I know that Marrell makes a level box that also creates framelines. Maybe something to look into, it's about the size of the PDL.

Transvideo has also a Frameline generator box, but might be big for you as well, worth a look.


Good Luck,


Erwin
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#3 Jens Piotrowski SOC

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:27 PM

Transvideo

Hello Charles,

Did you try the Transvideo Frameliner?

Best,

Jens
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#4 Charles Papert

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:37 PM

Thanks guys. The Transvideo looks to be about half a pound, so that's OK. I'll see if we can rent one of those (or if someone has one they rent to us, let me know).
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#5 Alec Jarnagin SOC

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 03:07 PM

Charles,

I must be missing something obvious here, but I assume you are only using one tuner and then daisy chaining the rest of the monitors. Can't you place the large XCS frameline generator between your tuner and that first monitor and avoid it being on the sled all together?
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#6 Charles Papert

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 04:20 PM

I've tried that in the past and had bad luck with it; the breakup inherent to transmitted video plays havoc with the frameline and the digital circuitry in general. Seeing as this is being viewed by the important folks I try to avoid such things. If anyone else has had success with this I'd be interested to hear about it--I myself found it a debacle.

Dealing with something very similar now as I attempt to dub my 80's era camcorder tapes to DVCAM for archiving and eventual editing--ingesting the footage that has some occasional sync dropouts, glitches, hard in-camera edits and dropout of control track is proving itchy at best. Final Cut keeps aborting the ingest every time the video goes wonky. Digital no likey poo-poo analog.
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#7 Alec Jarnagin SOC

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 06:19 PM

Charles,

I wondered if that might be an issue. Come to think of it, the only time I've done it has been on a Varricam movie where we were framing for 1.85. I set my framelines to match the viewfinder and the DIT set framelines on the big HD monitor, but I think that generator was built into the monitor. We were mostly hard wired so I suppose its possible they didn't even have those framelines when they switched to an analog SD in (when we had to transmit).

Well, good luck!
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#8 mark morgan

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:10 PM

Thanks guys. The Transvideo looks to be about half a pound, so that's OK. I'll see if we can rent one of those (or if someone has one they rent to us, let me know).


aloha charles
i gotta transvideo frameline generator that i'm not using
if your still looking to get one,i will make this one available
contact me by email:kalohe714@yahoo.com

best at ya
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#9 AndreasWood

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:01 PM

Attached File  frameliner.jpg   109.43KB   59 downloadsCharles,

It looks like you may have already found a solution. However, if you're interested I have a CEI Frameliner (something I won at NAB a few years back), which is gathering dust in my closet. I have only used it a handful of times but found that it worked quite well when I did. It's not nearly as sexy as the Transvideo (it's also not as slim) but it's reasonably light and you are welcome to borrow it if you want to try it out.

Regards,
Andreas
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#10 Lawrence Karman

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:44 PM

Attached File  frameliner.jpg   109.43KB   59 downloadsCharles,

It looks like you may have already found a solution. However, if you're interested I have a CEI Frameliner (something I won at NAB a few years back), which is gathering dust in my closet. I have only used it a handful of times but found that it worked quite well when I did. It's not nearly as sexy as the Transvideo (it's also not as slim) but it's reasonably light and you are welcome to borrow it if you want to try it out.

Regards,
Andreas



Charles, i have a couple of those CEI units you could try as well as the heavier XCS unit. The CEI ones are analog and may be the same you said you tried. Why don't you have an ND3 gel mask taped to the monitors. This will allow them to see into the safety area and give them a hard frame line.
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#11 Charles Papert

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 06:37 PM

Thanks everyone for the offers. I may have tracked down a great solution but it is being tested at present. If it doesn't work I'll consider one of the alternatives here.

Alec: yes, the HD framelines are being generated in the DIT tent. Normally with the Genesis in two piece mode you can generate them in the tape deck so they pass through to DIT and on to video village, but when transmitting from the camera you are using the output upstream of the deck output.

Holy cow, I just thought of something--I could put an outboard downconverter and the transmitter on the deck (in the backpack). Won't make much of a difference to the poor "sherpa" hauling that thing around, what's another 16 oz on top of those indignities!

Andreas: the analog unit I used was the CEI board in a project box, it took me back to the bad old days as it drifted and had spasms here and there just like my old Byro-installed board in my 3A used to...

Doc: the transmitted image through the downconverter won't line up perfectly with the hardwire downconverted image so we would be adding and removing overlays for a bunch of monitors (including handheld director's, dual video village 8", etc) as we change modes...not going to happen!
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