Front vs. Back mounted
Posted 05 January 2004 - 08:59 AM
Experiences, good or bad.
Stories, funny or not so funny.
Short comings versus advantages.
How many people actually own back mounted harnesses and how many of them still own there Front mounted ones?
Just trying to jump start some disscisions here...
Come on, don't dissappoint me guys.
I'll start... I own a DSD vest #075. And I'm happy with it but would like to also have access to a PRO Front mounted Vest for certain situations on set... like tight spaces and flat out running shots...
Posted 05 January 2004 - 09:48 AM
I have an early mod 111 vest and a Master vest.
The mod 111 is what I would describe as useable but you would not choose it over a Master vest.
If you where to read the original manual it seems that the vest as the rest of the kit is to always be used by two people. References to " have your assistant tighten the straps for you ". This is not always possible.
Slightly off subject though is the fact that the Mod 111 rig can be put down on the ground in between takes with no fear of damaging anything. I am finding this a rare thing with rigs nowadays.
The Master vest I have no real complaints about.
The front plate has a tendency to work loose this was improved on the newer Ultras by using bigger screws and a serrated dovetail piece.
The new snowboard type buckles are a big improvement at little cost. I believe it is simple to put in back straps too although I have not done this yet.
Master rig can be carefully put on the ground too.
I have tried on a DS vest only for 20 minutes and was not sold on it. However the forces on the body are totally different and I could see a big justification for having both types of vest and using them both so as to avoid over stressing particular back areas over time. I may buy one soon.
Cheers for now
Posted 05 January 2004 - 12:58 PM
Don´t say that you need a spotter for that, a spotter will not be able to help you anyway on highspeed.
As for the DSD, I think it is a real improvement to the "old" style. But for sure, not everybody will get used to it. I did, in a few minutes already.
My shots have been improved, more stable when needed, less rolling and swaying and breathing in shot, Easier moves, even if it means you have to stick out the arm more than you would do or could do with a frontmounted vest.
Low mode is definately much healthier with BM and at the end of the day I can say I feel tired, but not sore, as I used to feel before.
And it is much more comfortable as I don´t sweat as much anymore.
Bad things: I´m still scraping some paint sometimes with the knob on the backside.
It´s heavier, but that´s mainly a transport problem, I don´t feel it while wearing it.
It´s expensive, but the craftmanship is worth it and if you can extend your working life another 6 to 10 years, it is relativily a low investment.
Oh, I found another good thing, it easily transforms into a great Hard Mount.
Now I have a hard mount that can accomodate a normal Mk3 frontplate (still got the vest, for jungle places) and on the other side a DSD arm. I will post pictures later.
Rob van Gelder, Amsterdam, Holland
Posted 05 January 2004 - 01:06 PM
I bought Steve Campanelli's old Sauve vest last year. I decided to buy it, after I had found myself in bed for several days not able to move as a result of a rather long day of low mode in well below freezing temperatures. The low mode torque along with my extra clothing added enough shifting of my old Masters vest to put me in terrible imobilized pain the next day............
Since I bought Steve's vest (which fits me very very well) I have had no back strain whatsoever, and that has been under a variety of conditions with a variety of cameras from Arricams, BL4 (believe it or not), Millenium XL and a number of HD cameras with and without cables etc.. Back support is superb and energy use is lower than it is with a front mounted vest. Stability of the camera and balance of my body are better with the back mounted vest and control of the arm is easier. Low mode shots and those shots when you end up locking off at a place that was not too comfortable with the front mounted vest are generally a breeze with the back mounted vest.
Recently I had to send the vest in to get repaired, and was forced to borrow a pals front mounted vest. The vest was a brand new Ultra Vest, which is a very nicely engineered vest. Comfortable, easily adjustable, rigid enough and light; very well modified since the original Masters vests. The shot was a crane walk off and then a slow walk for about 150 feet, following Dennis Leary around a bunch of Fire Cadets. By the end of the 3 or 4 rehersals ( they had problems deciding what they truly wanted from the shot), I felt that familiar ache in my lower back that I had gotten from my old front mounted vest, and I was getting tired. Tired of holding my body upright, working against the sleds weight. Don't misunderstand, the shot was fine and I did the job without a hitch, BUT, there was a definite difference the energy exerted, and the comfort felt over the course of the shot. With the back mounted vest, the job would have been easier, plain and simple.
Do I miss my old front mounted vest? Not really. I just wish I had enough cash to buy another back mounted vest and use one as a back up and another a my primary, so that in the event that I had an accident I wouldn't have to borrow anyones front mounted vest again.
Posted 05 January 2004 - 01:55 PM
"Do I miss my old front mounted vest? Not really. I just wish I had enough cash to buy another back mounted vest and use one as a back up and another a my primary, so that in the event that I had an accident I wouldn't have to borrow anyones front mounted vest again."
That would be a luxury - specially when you consider that you can drive a very respectable new automobile for the price of 2 DSD vests!
Erwin, I have one (I forget what #... I think it's #94 - I'm too lazy to go check). I've had it for almost a year now, and I like it a lot. It is the only vest I've owned, though I've tried a number of different front mounted vests dating back to the first workshop I did in '87 or so. I found it pretty easy to get used to. It's very comfortable, and seems to distribute the weight in a manner that makes it easier to bear for longer periods.
Posted 05 January 2004 - 01:58 PM
I have a back mounted harnes as well, #45 (one of the early "Euro Vests"). I don't notice a difference in my shots, but I do have more stamina and less back stiffness than I had with my model 3 vest (that alone is well worth the cost!).
I have been using it nearly everyday on a series for 2 years now, no problems. I did have Tom Gleason make a smaller adjustment knob (the one that tilts the socket block up and down) because that is a place where you'll catch on a doorjam instead of bouncing off. As a matter of fact, this tilting mechanism seems to be obsolete with the sliding plate on the back (it was really designed for use on the models previous to the Euro) combined with the aircraft screws on the arm's socket block. In my opinion, it just adds weight and limits the carbon arm from contouring your back. Which brings me to the only negative I've found (besides the obvious price tag, but you do get what you pay for) -- the width. I have to pay alot more attention going through doorways and have to rely more on a spotter that I did before. The foam they use is also very nice at body temp...but putting that thing on after sitting on your cart in the cold for hours is a chore!
But the many positive aspects far out weigh the few negatives. Does anybody know what's going on at DSD/Klassen? Have they worked things out or did one or the other get reamed?
Posted 05 January 2004 - 05:53 PM
However, as Erwin stated, and we've had this conversation on more than one occasion, I truly feel the need to get a front mounted vest again. (I should not have sold mine after I bought the DSD).
There's been a couple of occasions where I wish my "footprint" was a bit skinnier.
I could basically repeat all the benefits the other operator's have already stated, but I won't. Those benefits with the backmounted vest DO exist.
But there's one thing (and I haven't figured out yet whether this is serious yet or not) that I've found that I highly DISLIKE about the backmounted vest.
This has been brought up before, and other's with a DSD seem to have experienced it as well. I call it the DSD Leg Tingle!
When wearing the vest for any length of time, especially doing a lock off, I've found to have gotten a bit of a leg tingle in my left leg. It's always a very brief (a couple seconds or less) numbing or tingling feeling.
I therefore have found myself less appt to stand around with the rig on, for any longer than 30 seconds. Even if it means docking for 10-15 seconds and then picking it back up again, that's what I'll do.
The tingling is never major (though have heard of one guy who fell down because his leg went totally numb) and it goes away pretty quickly if I move around a bit, and goes away immediately after docking and relieving the weight off of the body.
I've NEVER felt this at any other time other than when I'm wearing the DSD rig and carrying the rig for more than a couple minutes. I never felt it with my front mounted rig.
I talked to a physical therapts about it, and he said, it's most likely being caused by the pressure of the vest and the weight of the rig, "pinching" the femoral nerve.
So, what long term effects will the pinching of this nerve be on those of us with DSD vests (at least those of us with DSD vest who've experienced this leg tingle), who knows?
But, I'd love to have the option of switching back to my front mounted vest from time to time as well.
That's it, sorry so long, but I'd love to hear, again, those other operators who've felt the "DSD Leg Tingle" and if you feel it's a concern with the back mounted vest too.
Other than that I am greatful for the DSD vest and what it has done to relieve pressure off the lower back and increase stamina and decrease fatique in my operating.
Posted 05 January 2004 - 06:36 PM
I'd certainly describe this as a universal problem for both styles of vest and it will become most noticable when you're just standing still (be it in a lock off or just standing around)
It can result in your leg going numb if left alone for too long and might even result in destroying some nerve endings in your leg (after very long abuse)
I believe the medical term is Paresthesia and it has to do with the tightness of the vest.
A temporary solution can be to just walk around if possible, atleast keep your legs moving.
Anyway, this is not a DSD vest specific problem (I think)...just something else to deal with.
Your front mounted vest was probably set up lower or didn't pinch in the same place
Do you wear jeans? could be that those 'rings'(don't know the official name) that your belt goes through are pinching into your legs due to the pressure from the vest.
Try lowering the vest or raising your jeans, that really worked for me (though I have to be careful not to give myself a wedgie...can be really painful if you do it in a hurry!)
Maybe it'll help, if not atleast it will keep you and the crew entertained for a while as you try to pull your pants out of your buttcrack...
Peace, Ruben "High school finally tought me something useful...the SteadiWedgie!" Sluijter
Posted 05 January 2004 - 08:49 PM
Posted 05 January 2004 - 11:06 PM
I will say that I did put on my old vest once to compare the 2 after using the DSD for several months and my back muscles had atrophied somewhat and I felt alot of soreness in that area. I don't think it too practical to jump back and forth between the 2.
Posted 05 January 2004 - 11:25 PM
Just a thought , did anyone spend the money on the DSD Vest and find it not the thing for them??
Posted 06 January 2004 - 09:43 AM
but i am in search for an old fm vest just for running shoots
Posted 06 January 2004 - 11:39 AM
David "back mounted forever"
Posted 06 January 2004 - 12:51 PM
This year I FINALLY decided to add back straps to my vest. This has made a HUGE difference. I now have no back pain and very little, if any, soreness. (why did CP get rid of the back straps anyway?)
One thing that I did notice while working on the Rose Bowl Pre-Parade show last week, was that the front part of my hips became a little numb. (I was in the rig for more than an hour without rest). I was wearing a belt too which I shouldn't have had on and I may have had the vest on a little too tight this time. It's interesting how the location of the stress points on my vest have changed. All for the better!!!!
Last year I threw around the idea of getting a DSD. I've tried it on several times and like the DSD but since I've added the back straps I've decided my vest is good enough.
I've decided since the rose bowl shoot..... that I won't be selling my Triax Connector Cable. (I used it last week for the first time in 6 years and will more than likely need it again... I'm not sure what I would have done with out it!)
Posted 06 January 2004 - 10:59 PM