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Sony HDV Z1U Vibration on Flyer


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#1 Tony LeHoven

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:06 AM

Aloha,

My name's Tony LeHoven . . . I've got a Flyer and am based out of Kauai, Hawaii. I've been shooting with a Sony HDV Z1U for about 8 months and have noticed a very visible high frequency vibration in the recorded picture. I tried shooting in both HD and SD but still have the shaky quality especially when moving fast or running. I mounted a Sony VX-1000 DV camera on the Flyer and the image is as smooth as butter. I borrowed my friend's Z1U and got the same problem. Lastly I mounted the camera on some foam between the base and the sled but there was even more vibration. I think it's a transport issue since the VX-1000 worked well. I also tried using the steady shot yet the vibration is still there along with the expected jerkiness from the steady shot trying to compensate.

Has anyone else out there experienced this problem with a Z1U? It seems to be super sensitive to the smallest vibration. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any replies . . .

-Tony
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#2 Eric Young

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 11:38 AM

Aloha,

My name's Tony LeHoven . . . I've got a Flyer and am based out of Kauai, Hawaii. I've been shooting with a Sony HDV Z1U for about 8 months and have noticed a very visible high frequency vibration in the recorded picture. I tried shooting in both HD and SD but still have the shaky quality especially when moving fast or running. I mounted a Sony VX-1000 DV camera on the Flyer and the image is as smooth as butter. I borrowed my friend's Z1U and got the same problem. Lastly I mounted the camera on some foam between the base and the sled but there was even more vibration. I think it's a transport issue since the VX-1000 worked well. I also tried using the steady shot yet the vibration is still there along with the expected jerkiness from the steady shot trying to compensate.

Has anyone else out there experienced this problem with a Z1U? It seems to be super sensitive to the smallest vibration. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any replies . . .

-Tony


OK, you've had the problem on two different Z1s, yet I've used a Z1 (UK model) on three music videos on a Flyer with no problems other than my novice Steadicam operating! It gets worse with foam between, and it's not the steadyshot, which was my first thought, but you've tried it with and without and it hasn't cured the problem.

I did find that attaching the quickrelease plate to the base of the Z1 wasn't perfectly flat due to the camera mouldings and rubber pads protruding slightly. This means you may have to tighten the mounting screw slightly tighter than at first feels right for a secure mounting. Obviously do this carefully, and don't go overboard on tightness as you could damage the camera mount socket!

Are you shooting at the wide end of the lens?

Is it there if you're just locked off on a static?

Is it actually vibration, and not some sort of shutter effect?
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#3 bobgilles

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:43 PM

Aloha,

My name's Tony LeHoven . . . I've got a Flyer and am based out of Kauai, Hawaii. I've been shooting with a Sony HDV Z1U for about 8 months and have noticed a very visible high frequency vibration in the recorded picture. I tried shooting in both HD and SD but still have the shaky quality especially when moving fast or running. I mounted a Sony VX-1000 DV camera on the Flyer and the image is as smooth as butter. I borrowed my friend's Z1U and got the same problem. Lastly I mounted the camera on some foam between the base and the sled but there was even more vibration. I think it's a transport issue since the VX-1000 worked well. I also tried using the steady shot yet the vibration is still there along with the expected jerkiness from the steady shot trying to compensate.

Has anyone else out there experienced this problem with a Z1U? It seems to be super sensitive to the smallest vibration. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any replies . . .

-Tony


OK, you've had the problem on two different Z1s, yet I've used a Z1 (UK model) on three music videos on a Flyer with no problems other than my novice Steadicam operating! It gets worse with foam between, and it's not the steadyshot, which was my first thought, but you've tried it with and without and it hasn't cured the problem.

I did find that attaching the quickrelease plate to the base of the Z1 wasn't perfectly flat due to the camera mouldings and rubber pads protruding slightly. This means you may have to tighten the mounting screw slightly tighter than at first feels right for a secure mounting. Obviously do this carefully, and don't go overboard on tightness as you could damage the camera mount socket!

Are you shooting at the wide end of the lens?

Is it there if you're just locked off on a static?

Is it actually vibration, and not some sort of shutter effect?



The quasi-24P mode on the Z1 really sucks, if you look on message boards worldwide, most pros are using this camera in 30i and doing the pulldown in Magic Bullet or other software. I suspect that you are falling victim to this terrible simulated cine mode that Sony came up with, the camera head is really nice, but the cine mode fake pulldown is really giving everyone fits. Any movement in the Cine24 mode is jarring because of the combination of the HDV compression and the Cine24 fake pulldown, just shoot in 30 and you will notice this problem will vanish.
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#4 benedictspence

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:32 PM

Hi Tony!

You should be able to track down where the vibration is coming from quite easily... build your sled with the flyer and have a run around with it; check the vibration is there. Dock the sled, pick it up by the post and give it a little, but firm, shake. If something is vibrating you should be able to feel it and hear it; using your other hand apply pressure on the camera- push it down onto the topstage while shaking (not too hard!) the rig. If that fixes it then it's the mounting of the camera to your sled which is the problem. If thats not it, try holding onto the Z1's lcd and shaking again- is that the problem? You should be able to work out what is causing the vibration by trial and error... Just be glad you've noticed it's happening at all! Can be very hard to spot sometimes!

Ben Spence
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#5 Tony LeHoven

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 03:02 PM

Thanks for all the prompt replies! Again, I think the vibration is a camera issue. It's not being used in the pseudo 24p mode so that's not the problem. The fact that the VX-1000 works fine pretty much rules out the Flyer although Eric's suggestion to tighten the plate makes a lot of sense. Ben's comments about tracking down the physical vibration are good but the camera seems to be physically very smooth on the sled. There is no noticible physical vibration that I can see! I remember reading a post awhile back on another forum about a guy that was having the same problems so I thought there would be more users with this problem. The fact that my friend's Z1U did this also makes me think that all the Sony HDV's are suspect but then again we could be part of the minority with this vibration "bug". One time I had the camera locked off on a tripod and although the wind was very light I got the same kind of vibration anomaly. It's very strange and disconcerting as it limits the use of this camera (mine at least) on a moving platform.

Thanks again for all your helpful replies.

-Tony
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#6 Jeff Muhlstock SOC

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 04:24 PM

Tony, Chances are there is something loose. This vibration can happen on any Steadicam with any camera, all it takes is a little slop in something on the rig or camera. I would closely examine the battery connection (both on the camera and your sled), I have seen it with full size Anton B's, there is a slight bit of play that then causes a high end vibration when moving fast. If the battery can move at all when it is connected, this might cause your problem. Any play at all is no good. Shim it with some gaffer tape if needed. Rigidity is essential. This is the first thing I would look at. I have also seen some play in top stages (since other camera's seem fine, this is probably not the trouble), for instance, the PRO D-box has an adjustment for its side to side and fore/aft tension. If this is left to loose, it creates play and thus, shake. I have seen many shots on the big screen that have this vibration. Check it all, matte box, base plate, batteries, etc. All must be totally rigid and free of play. Good luck,

Jeff
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#7 Matt Mouraud

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 01:47 PM

Shot a music video the other day with your combination, no problemo whatsoever. Slapped the cam on the sled, balanced it out (don't this thing balance beautifully ?) Have you checked that all screws are tightened up ? The VX1000 is a somewhat lighter camera than the HDV... As Jeff pointed out everything must be absolutely tight on the rig otherwise it will show.
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#8 Rogerhaugen

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:41 PM

Hi!
Did you try to switch the optical stabilizer off? This might have an effect.
Roger
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#9 Tony LeHoven

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 09:03 PM

Shot a music video the other day with your combination, no problemo whatsoever. Slapped the cam on the sled, balanced it out (don't this thing balance beautifully ?) Have you checked that all screws are tightened up ? The VX1000 is a somewhat lighter camera than the HDV... As Jeff pointed out everything must be absolutely tight on the rig otherwise it will show.


Thanks for your reply. Screws are tight. Have you tried running with yours or operating it from a vehicle? Walking with my rig isn't really a problem, it's when things get rough that I see the jitter. It's not like the motion is coming directly from the rig, it seems like more of a transport or electronic jitter. I appreciate your input.

-Tony

Hi!
Did you try to switch the optical stabilizer off? This might have an effect.
Roger

Yes Roger, thanks. I still have the jitter. Strangely enough I still get the jitter with the optical stabilizer on. The shot won't be as smooth but the stabilizer should take care of that vibration. It doesn't and that's why I think the problem is in the transport or electronics of the camera.

-Tony
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#10 Matt Mouraud

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 04:30 AM

Do you have the possibility to test another Flyer ?
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#11 Tony LeHoven

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 02:58 PM

Do you have the possibility to test another Flyer ?

No, I'm the only one with any kind of Steadicam on this island . . .
-Tony
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#12 Eric Young

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 05:46 AM

Maybe you can post a link to some footage with the problem.

It's hard to guess what else it could be, after all the suggestions already given, without seeing the problem.
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#13 Nick Bennett

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:52 PM

Hi Tony, I've also had this problem with a Flyer that I bought for a documentary shoot, I used the Z1 with the image stabilising off and encoutered lots of vibration when running with the rig.

Screws were tightened but the camera still shook at any kind of speed, I suspect the problem lies in the rigidity of the camera chasis/mounting block.

I've since sold my Flyer so did not bother to investigate further.

Nick
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#14 RobinThwaites

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:53 AM

[font=Arial][font=Arial][font=Arial]Hi Tony

Areas to check out and eliminate one by one.

Direct vibration. Loose camera mounting thread, bottom of camera not flat, camera mounted at extreme end of dovetail plate and out of stage area.

Sympathetic vibration. Loose battery, monitor, top light, anything. Don't be fooled if it doesn't happen with the other camera, it may have a different resonant frequency.

Tape transport. Seen this from heli shots but really unlikely on this since you need considerable vibration to make it happen in the first place and also the inertia of wide tape.

Loose lens optic. Not impossible and difficult to detect. More likely than tape slap.

See if you can borrow another Z1 and make it happen to eliminate the camera.

Good luck
Robin
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#15 TJ Williams

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 12:24 AM

Have had it occurr in the past that wind entering the camera during movement caused some tape lifting.
this may look like a vibration problem. might try taping over the tape door epening etc. Remembered shooting on your island and it was always windy!!! bit of a reach but then you have already tried everything else.
TJ
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