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low budget monitor,


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#1 Robert Eder

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 02:26 PM

Hello,

I am thinking of buying a lower budget tft monitor,

i found 2 interesting displays:

panasonic 7" TC-7WMS1
transvideo 4"

i am not shure which one is better, the transvideo can do greenscreen, the panasonic not, but panasonic is widescreen.

both have no frameliners or bubble level but they are below 1000?

are there any other good displays in this price range?

thanks a lot,

robert
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#2 thomas-english

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 03:28 PM

the reason why green screens are green is because of the nature of phosphors used to get a super bright screen, not because it s better for the looking at.

correct me if I am wrong please.
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#3 Marcin Brauer

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 03:51 PM

I`m not quite sure if that`s 100% reson to use green Thomas. Human sight is more sensitive towards green and it is the most relaxing color to use. Almost all of military equipment, car dashboards and other enlighted meters or displays use green light. As far as I remember biology it has something to do with light receptors we have in our eyes.

As for the LCD I would go for brighter than bigger. Summer sun can make CRTs look dark, not to mention LCDs...
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#4 Afton Grant

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 04:25 PM

I`m not quite sure if that`s 100% reson to use green Thomas. Human sight is more sensitive towards green and it is the most relaxing color to use. Almost all of military equipment, car dashboards and other enlighted meters or displays use green light. As far as I remember biology it has something to do with light receptors we have in our eyes.


Marcin,

I'm not sure if it's a worldwide standard, but the vast majority of military and other aircraft actually use red light, not green. Studies have shown it's the best light for low-light situations, in that it doesn't "flare" as much as other colors allowing the pilot or navigator to better see the actual road or space in front of him.

Most automobiles do use green lighting, however, this was for aesthetic and brightness purposes only. While red lights are bright enough, green lights "seem" brighter - much due to their propensity to flare. Also, aesthetically, a red instrument panel doesn't look as friendly as a green one. I know it's silly, but it's true.

Many of the higher class automobiles, German especially (VW, BMW, Audi), appreciate function over form and employ the red instruments. Good for them.

I wish I could contribute to the explanation of the relationship between green and monitors. It's something with which I'm not yet familiar.

Best,
Afton
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#5 Matt Mouraud

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 05:50 PM

One more thing about why we use red in aircrafts over green is that it is a neutral color, so to speak, and it doesn't modify color nuances as found on charts for example.

As far as LCD's go, I'm quite hapy with my 7" Pana for studio and night application, but only if I'm using a camera that has frameline capability. Otherwise, there goes the Marell HB...
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#6 thomas-english

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 07:30 PM

so far as I understand, the fastest colour to hit the back of your mind is yellow.

Hence tennis balls and the football argument of euro cup of old.
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#7 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 07 October 2005 - 07:38 PM

One more thing about why we use red in aircrafts over green is that it is a neutral color, so to speak, and it doesn't modify color nuances as found on charts for example.



I would hope that you are not actually teaching students that because it is absolutely wrong. Next time you go flying try reading your sectional in red lighting, half of the text and airspace depections will disappear.

Red light is used in aircraft (Some not all...) because it is a relatively low intensity lighting and will not disturb your night vision. Most new airplanes do not have red instrument lighting, instead they have a very warm white light. The Lancair Columbia 400 I have been flying for the last two months has zero red lighting in it. Ever have the privilige of flying in the jump seat of a airliner? Ever done it in a storm? It would probally surprise you to see what happpens when the PIC calls out for "Storm Light" and the cabin illuminates with white light...
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#8 thomas-english

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 03:30 AM

If your budget could only afford the trasnvideo 4' , I would go with the panasonic.

whilst the panasonic does not overscan (what light director?) it is cheap and bright for your money. I have enjoyed using them for the whole start of my career. It will serve you well and work as a backup.

If your going transvideo and have the extra money get the ranbow ultrabright at 6.5 inch. I have this and am very very happy. I don t operate in the californian sun day in day out but when in the sun it has worked very well.

I don t see the point in getting a 4inch transvideo.

thomas
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#9 Matt Mouraud

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 01:22 PM

One more thing about why we use red in aircrafts over green is that it is a neutral color, so to speak, and it doesn't modify color nuances as found on charts for example.



I would hope that you are not actually teaching students that because it is absolutely wrong. Next time you go flying try reading your sectional in red lighting, half of the text and airspace depections will disappear.

Red light is used in aircraft (Some not all...) because it is a relatively low intensity lighting and will not disturb your night vision. Most new airplanes do not have red instrument lighting, instead they have a very warm white light. The Lancair Columbia 400 I have been flying for the last two months has zero red lighting in it. Ever have the privilige of flying in the jump seat of a airliner? Ever done it in a storm? It would probally surprise you to see what happpens when the PIC calls out for "Storm Light" and the cabin illuminates with white light...


I have flewn for quite some time before having to leave your fine country and all had red cockpit lights : C172, 210, BE90-100, C500, F20, including our 737-500 level D sim and so on... I haven't flewn heavy iron in a while, and the Cessna I occasionnaly rent here has also red lights. I'm taking a peek at the FAA Instrument flying handbook right now and it corroborates what I wrote... But I agree with you to a certain extent, having logged over 300 hours of night VFR in small airplanes with a red maglite... and a color moving map GPS... ;)
I don't teach anymore and haven't done so in years but keep current. I was taught red, I teached red. Glad to see things change. I shall try green next time I go out at night (difficult in France)... ;)
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#10 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 02:49 PM

I have flewn for quite some time before having to leave your fine country and all had red cockpit lights : C172, 210, BE90-100, C500, F20, including our 737-500 level D sim and so on... I haven't flewn heavy iron in a while, and the Cessna I occasionnaly rent here has also red lights. I'm taking a peek at the FAA Instrument flying handbook right now and it corroborates what I wrote... But I agree with you to a certain extent, having logged over 300 hours of night VFR in small airplanes with a red maglite... and a color moving map GPS... ;)
I don't teach anymore and haven't done so in years but keep current. I was taught red, I teached red. Glad to see things change. I shall try green next time I go out at night (difficult in France)... ;)



Interesting comments, the FAA 'handbook" agrees with me not you. Nowhere does ANY
FAA publication call red a neutral color

FAA Instrument Flying Handbook Publication number FAA-H-8083-15 Page 1-8. Here's the direct quote on "Vision under Dim and Bright Illumination"

"Under conditions of dim illumination, aeronautical charts and aircraft instruments can become unreadable, unless adequate cockpit lighting is availble. In darkness, vision becomes more sensitive to light; this process is called dark adaptation. Although exposure to total darkness for at least 30 minutes is required for complete dark adaptation, a pilot can achieve a moderate degree of of dark adapation within 20 minutes under dim red cockpit lighting. Red light distorts colors, especially on aeronautical charts, and makes it very difficult for eyes to focus on objects inside the aircraft. Pilots should use it only where optimum night vision capability is necessary. White cockpit lighting should be available when needed for map and instrument reading, especially under IMC conditions.

During night flights in the vicinity of lighting, white cockpits lights should be turned up to help prevent loss of night vision due to the bright flashes"

As for your keeping current, you are not with the FAA, Your first class medical expired long ago (Your third class was up last day of April '02 if you are under 40, if not last day of April '01) also according to the FAA you are neither a Double I (CFI/I) or a MEI infact you don't hold a FAA issued Multi Rating. You might want to change your signature.
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#11 Matt Mouraud

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:43 PM

Done. This is steadicam forum, by the way. How about keeping this going on Pprume, for example ?
Yes, I'm JAA now... :blink:
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#12 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 09:54 PM

Done. This is steadicam forum, by the way. How about keeping this going on Pprume, for example ?
Yes, I'm JAA now... :blink:



I realize this is a steadicam forum, I've been here since day one. Doesn't change the fact that you posted and then argued some very incorrect facts. You also made some claims about your skills that were false.

What is Pprume?
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#13 David George Ellis

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 10:23 PM

Robert,

Best answer for you from me would be to go to a dealer or rental house that offers these products and do a side-by-side comparison of the two. If they allow you to see it with a high intensity beam on them and in low light, cool. You may be willing to live with what one thing does and the other doesn't. Think about the majority of your shooting environments and decide which ammenities you would rather be with than without. Good luck and let us know what you went with and why.

David

P.S. For the other "topic" in this thread:

The retina contains two types of photoreceptors, rods and cones concentrating in an area called the macula. In the center of that region is the "fovea centralis", a 0.3 mm diameter rod-free area with very thin, densely packed cones. Cones can be divided into "red" (64%), "green" (32%), and "blue" (2%) based on measured response curves. The green and red cones are concentrated in the fovea centralis. The "blue" cones have the highest sensitivity and are mostly found outside the fovea.

The "blue" cones are unique among the cones in that our final visual perception is comparable to that of red and green, suggesting that there is a selective "blue amplifier" in the visual processing in the brain. However, since the "blue" cones are outside of the fovea, the refractive index for blue light is different enough from red and green that when they are in focus, the blue is slightly out of focus (chromatic aberration).

More than one thousand times as sensitive as cones, the rods can reportedly be triggered by individual photons under optimal conditions. Optimal "dark-adapted" vision is obtained only after a considerable period of darkness, because the rod adaption process is much slower than that of the cones. The light response of the rods peaks sharply in the blue; they respond very little to red light. This leads to a strange phenomena:

Ships have red instrument lights b/c your rods do not respond to red light. Therefore, the pilot can gain full dark-adapted vision with the rods with which to watch for obstacles outside. It would be undesirable to examine anything with white light even for a moment, because the attainment of optimum night-vision may take up to a half-hour. Red lights do not spoil it.

In bright light, the color-sensitive cones are predominant and we see a brilliant red rose with subdued green leaves. Which explains why your Little Red Corvette gets the laser first. But at twilight, the cones begin to shut down, and most of our vision comes from the rods. The rods pick up the green from the leaves much more strongly than the red from the petals, so the green leaves become brighter than the red petals.

This response of the eye as a function of frequency is called the Luminous Efficacy of the eye. The value for the scotopic (dark-adapted vision) peak meets the efficacy of the photopic (light-adapted vision) value at 555 nm, or, green in the visible spectrum. Which to my knowledge, is why green is the favored color used in our CRTs. Red, too dark. Blue, too blurry. Either that, or it's just cheaper to make green than blue or red.

Can't explain what Pprume is, though. I'll leave that for the experts...
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#14 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:54 AM

P.S. For the other "topic" in this thread:

The retina contains two types of photoreceptors, rods and cones concentrating in an area called the macula. In the center of that region is the "fovea centralis", a 0.3 mm diameter rod-free area with very thin, densely packed cones. Cones can be divided into "red" (64%), "green" (32%), and "blue" (2%) based on measured response curves. The green and red cones are concentrated in the fovea centralis. The "blue" cones have the highest sensitivity and are mostly found outside the fovea.

The "blue" cones are unique among the cones in that our final visual perception is comparable to that of red and green, suggesting that there is a selective "blue amplifier" in the visual processing in the brain. However, since the "blue" cones are outside of the fovea, the refractive index for blue light is different enough from red and green that when they are in focus, the blue is slightly out of focus (chromatic aberration).

More than one thousand times as sensitive as cones, the rods can reportedly be triggered by individual photons under optimal conditions. Optimal "dark-adapted" vision is obtained only after a considerable period of darkness, because the rod adaption process is much slower than that of the cones. The light response of the rods peaks sharply in the blue; they respond very little to red light. This leads to a strange phenomena:

Ships have red instrument lights b/c your rods do not respond to red light. Therefore, the pilot can gain full dark-adapted vision with the rods with which to watch for obstacles outside. It would be undesirable to examine anything with white light even for a moment, because the attainment of optimum night-vision may take up to a half-hour. Red lights do not spoil it.

In bright light, the color-sensitive cones are predominant and we see a brilliant red rose with subdued green leaves. Which explains why your Little Red Corvette gets the laser first. But at twilight, the cones begin to shut down, and most of our vision comes from the rods. The rods pick up the green from the leaves much more strongly than the red from the petals, so the green leaves become brighter than the red petals.

This response of the eye as a function of frequency is called the Luminous Efficacy of the eye. The value for the scotopic (dark-adapted vision) peak meets the efficacy of the photopic (light-adapted vision) value at 555 nm, or, green in the visible spectrum. Which to my knowledge, is why green is the favored color used in our CRTs. Red, too dark. Blue, too blurry. Either that, or it's just cheaper to make green than blue or red.

Can't explain what Pprume is, though. I'll leave that for the experts...



Excellent work, don't forget that with night vision we actually see better off axis than we do on axis (Straight ahead) due to the blue receptors
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#15 David George Ellis

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 08:02 AM

Eric,

You're right and thank you. The "amplified" blue cones are located outside of the fovea, closest to the rods, and they help gather light for our night vision, sensitive motion detection, and peripheral viewing. While visual acuity is better with the cones in the fovea, the rods are better motion sensors. Since the rods predominate in the peripheral vision, and are more light sensitive, you see dimmer objects in your peripheral vision.

If you notice a dim star in your peripheral vision, it may disappear when you look at it directly since you are moving the image onto the cone-packed fovea area, which is not as light sensitive. But, your day-adapted cones adapt much more quickly to changing light levels than your night-adapted rods, despite their lack of light sensitivity. As you read this, your eyes move continually to keep the light from the object of interest (like, these words), falling on the fovea centralis where the bulk of the cones reside. And, so you can read the next line as well.

BTW: 555 nm is actually yellow-green (too busy watching my Yanks to correct at the moment). This is the cross-efficacy of both the photopic peak and scotopic curve (not the other way as I mentioned b/4, again b/c of my Yanks), so Thomas, you were correct to mention that. But green peaks more in scotopic, or night vision. And since yellow is not a primary color of light, it would take a mixture of red and green to achieve. That's just not monochomatic enough for my tastes.

No, I prefer simple green. Easier on the wallets of the manufacturer, which in turn is easier on our wallets. Sorry if I bored you guys.


David


P.S. Did a search. PPRuNe stands for Professional Pilots Rumor Network www.pprune.org

P.P.S. How's that monitor coming, Robert?

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