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flyer LE question


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#1 robinsharvell

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:08 PM

Evening all, I have a question regarding the Flyer LE. Basically when ever i use my flyer i have a lot of trouble keeping my horizons straight i get a lot of roll (not sea sick roll but enough to anoy me). When ever i use the Archer 1  i don't have this problem to  the same extent. Is there a trick with lighter rigs that I'm missing? Im just learning steadicam so i can blame a lot of this on lack of experience but the difference in the two rigs is noticeable. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Robin


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#2 Mark Baluk

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:34 PM

What camera are you putting on the flyer? Is the total camera weight a big difference between what you do with your archer and what you do with the flyer? If you're keeping the drop times similar and the total mass is similar, (and your  the same operator, so that variable is out), then it's possibly something to do with the rig/ gimble.

 

It's possible that your gimble is not centred and out of alignment. This could throw the rig out of balance when you are in motion. Best bet right now is to check if it's centred: http://www.steadicam...alCentering.pdf


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#3 robinsharvell

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:00 PM

PMW-500 in both instances. i also tried an EX3 a C300 and for some reason a Z1 (it was lying around) the same thing occurred . The main difference was drop time which was less on the flyer rig. (3sec A1 /  1.5-2 sec on the flyer). 

 

Will try re-aligning the gimbal see if that helps.

 

Thanks for the advice :)


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#4 Mark Baluk

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:01 PM

I've never re-aligned a Flyer gimble, but the first few paragraphs in there show you how to detect the problem.


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#5 Evrim KAYA

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:07 PM

Contrary to popular belief, operating a rig gets harder as the rigs get smaller (even though it gets easier to carry the weight). As you lose inertia the rig become much more susceptible to outside influences, be it wind or your own operating hand. That’s why, even while using full sized rigs we sometimes add weight (antlers or such), expand masses or add gyro if it's a windy day.

 

As Mark said, you might want to check the gimbal centering as well, but I think what you are experiencing while operating Flyer is operating error accentuated by smaller massed rig.

 

Keep exercising and you’ll be fine…

 

Welcome to the community.


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#6 robinsharvell

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:29 PM

will have a look see if the gimble is amendable, But i feel that its more a practice thing. Its not major 45degree roll when turning but almost everything i do is a walking mid shot around a corridor or similar so that slight roll is annoying me.

Im starting to agree that bigger rigs are slightly easier to control than smaller ones but sadly my bank doesn't share my enthusiasm.

 

Im hoping that it is just a case that mistakes are more noticeable on the lighter rigs, I'm figuring that if i can get it ok on the lighter rig then i won't get lazy on one with more inertia/mass. However this might not be the case. 

 

thanks again 

 

robin


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#7 Kiel Michael Eulberg

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 04:49 AM

I am a flyer LE owner, and when I first started I had this issue, most likely because I was not properly following all of the proper balancing procedures. I rarely have this issue anymore, so maybe if I tell you how I balance it could help. I start with a general balance up top, then I turn her horizontal and position the gimble/ lengthen the system till I get the drop time to the good ol' 3 seconds. After that I fine tune the rest of the positioning of the camera, monitor, etc. Hope that helps in some way!


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#8 Frederic Sturm

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:25 AM

Hey Robin,

 

apart from possible centering issues with your gimbal (the PMW-500 sounds like putting quite a load on a flyer, so your gimbal might not be too happy about doing so regularly either), you said you used different drop times on the 2 rigs you are comparing. A 1.5 second drop time will make for a way more pronounced pendulum effect than a 3 second drop time. Like way more. So for a first start, after proper balance maybe try experimenting with drop time. Of course with more practice you'll learn to keep your horizon level with any drop time, but it sure sounds like the different drop times might have something to do with what you are experiencing. 

 

Happy practising =)


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#9 Mark Baluk

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:47 AM

I definitely agree. Try making the drop time @ 3 seconds and see how you fare. As for weight limitations, also a possibility, but I've had 20+ lbs cameras on there with no issues when I used one in the past.


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#10 robinsharvell

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:10 PM

thank you all so much for the advice, i will get some time on Sat so will definitely try all the suggestions regarding weight limits and drop time

 

thanks once again

 

robin


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#11 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 08:48 PM

Good advice and suggestions here. Also, do you have good dynamic balance? This could be affecting your horizon on panning, especially noticable with the lesser inertia of the light rig.

 

The quick way I used to get my Flyer into the ballpark on DB was to 1) extend the monitor arm completely horizontal, with the monitor face tilted up at a slight angle. 2) use a relatively light battery, like an anton bauer Hytron 50 or Dionic 90. 3) tip the battery panel down, tucking the battery slightly under the post (just a bit beyond vertical) 4) put the camera on the stage with CG about 1/2 inch behind the post center. Adjust side to side static balance. 5) get rough front to back static balance by making slight adjustments in the battery paddle angle. 6) Set drop time to about 3 seconds 7) fine-tune static balance with the camera stage adjustments. 8) test and adjust dynamic balance using the normal techniques.


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#12 robinsharvell

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:14 PM

Evening all, just wanted to say a huge thank you for all the suggestions. Have put them into practice (except the gimble, i dont think its dooable on my own) and its worked my horizons are much much better, my  statics are now awful, but am ironing that out. Dynamic balance is as much better aswell. On a much sadder note all the shoots i had coming up which were to be done on steadicam are now to be done on the MOVI. But just gives me a bit more time to get things right. Once again thank you for all your help.

 

Robin


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#13 Andrew Stone

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:29 PM

Good advice and suggestions here. Also, do you have good dynamic balance? This could be affecting your horizon on panning, especially noticable with the lesser inertia of the light rig.

 

The quick way I used to get my Flyer into the ballpark on DB was to 1) extend the monitor arm completely horizontal, with the monitor face tilted up at a slight angle. 2) use a relatively light battery, like an anton bauer Hytron 50 or Dionic 90. 3) tip the battery panel down, tucking the battery slightly under the post (just a bit beyond vertical) 4) put the camera on the stage with CG about 1/2 inch behind the post center. Adjust side to side static balance. 5) get rough front to back static balance by making slight adjustments in the battery paddle angle. 6) Set drop time to about 3 seconds 7) fine-tune static balance with the camera stage adjustments. 8) test and adjust dynamic balance using the normal techniques.

 

Excellent description Mark. My only suggestion (and of course this is operator specific) would be a shortened drop time of a bit over 2 seconds. The business about the battery paddle being slightly under the post is critical in most situations especially if you are approaching the limit. If you put on a new monitor, which is typically heavier, then things are different and you have to angle the monitor arm up and tweak the battery paddle to balance and get the dynamic balance in order.


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#14 Juan Lima

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:37 PM

Good suggestions!  I've been operating both (Archer 1 and Flyer LE) as mid-small units for a long time.

I always add weight to get more mass.

I use not as shorten drop times.2-2.5 or even 3 to get very precise shots and and rock solid stops.

 

All rigs require a light grip but this case it's pretty more sensitive. Also you have a significantly smaller gimbal diameter compared to other rigs.

 

Very ligth grip. Use only a bit stronger Grip for Big Moves or Fast Pans.

 

For windy days (or clabe) I use a more botton heavy rig but I try to keep the very light grip as much I can.

But this is a fine tip for every Flyer LE operator:

Try not to raise your elbow so much. This forces hand to twist a bit. This is a common horizon problem in all rigs but in the case of the Flyer LE it's very critical.
 
Flyer LE looks like a toy but isn't a toy. Well operated it performs like his big brothers.

It's a wonderfull rig. It supports a lot of abuse (probably the most overloaded rig of all time). I hate it first time I saw it.

Before years of use (and abuse) I love it.

Flyer LE it's the "pocket Knife" of Steadicam.


Edited by Juan Lima, 10 March 2014 - 12:41 PM.

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