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steadicam+ Viper / 2K Cameras


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#1 sebastian matthias

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 03:28 PM

hey all together !
we are planning a shoot and want to use the viper or some other 2k-camera.
my question: what other 2k-cameras beside the viper are around and WORKING ?
the KINETTA looks perfect, but it still doesn´t seem to be ready for take-off within the next couple of month.
the D-20 from ARRI (there are just 8 of them around worldwide) is still in experimental stage as well.
what about the GENISIS / Panavision ? Working?on market?in EUROPE?
and which of those cameras you can BUY ? (not rent)
what was StarWars filmed with ? i mean there must be cameras that actually exist inthis world and that work as well.
the DALSA maybe ? but that on works only with a VERY FAT cable.(at least that´s whats shown on pictures.Maybe not perfect on a steadicam :-(
what other cables are around for that cameras ? fiberoptic ?

okay: it was not only one question :blink: actually i counted 10 !

but to keep your brains working here comes another one:
WHAT ABOUT FOCUS ????
a camera-assistent told me (and she is really a top-focus-puller and has worked with the viper on a movie for a full year) that pulling focus with it is pure hardcore,because you have 2,5x less depth of field than you have with a normal 35mm Camera.Is that true ?That really would concerne me a little bit with steadicam!That would mean if you shoot with a 25mm lens,
you would have depth of field like a 60mm , a 50mm=125mm and so on.

since at least 80% of the shots are steadicam,that really would be an issue.

so who is out there to feed my CMOS with some detail ?


cheers

sebastian "rather would shoot film" matthias
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#2 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 08:33 PM

[quote name='sebastian matthias' date='Jul 8 2005, 01:28 PM']


>>we are planning a shoot and want to use the viper or some other 2k-camera.
>>my question: what other 2k-cameras beside the viper are around and WORKING ?


Right now not many...

>>the KINETTA looks perfect, but it still doesn´t seem to be ready
>>for take-off within the next couple of month.

Pure vaporware, don't hold your breath for this one.

>>the D-20 from ARRI (there are just 8 of them around worldwide)
>>is still in experimental stage as well.

They are placing them on select shows and it is a great camera in EVERY Regard.

>>what about the GENISIS / Panavision ? Working?on market?in EUROPE?

Again VERY limited availbility and not quite a mature camera

>>and which of those cameras you can BUY ? (not rent)

The Arri, the Viper, the kinetta (Yeah right) the Sony FW-950 and also the superb Vince Pace rebuild/rehouse/redesign of the FW-950.

>>what was StarWars filmed with ? i mean there must be cameras that actually
>>exist in this world and that work as well.

I personally don't really care for the "Digitization" of Starwars or the look of the Sony 900. I also don't care forr the length of that camera and it unslakable thirst for batteries. It's also heavy in real world production trim

>>the DALSA maybe ? but that on works only with a VERY FAT cable.
>>(at least that´s whats shown on pictures.Maybe not perfect on a steadicam :-(

The Dalsa is not nor will it ever be a steadicam camera. It's HUGE, About the size of a BNC-R

>>what other cables are around for that cameras ? fiberoptic ?

Telecast has in my opinion the best Fiber Optic solution (I was the Steadicam Beta Tester for them a few years ago) super thin and unbelievable flexible mil-spec fiber optic. in 6 months of Steadicam heavy production we had fiber on EVERY Shot and I honestly never noticed it.

If I had a choice right now it would be either the Viper (What I will be using on my series this year) or the Vince Pace totally rebuilt sony 950 which is a 4:4:4 camera (The FW900 is not) that does not have the recorder built into it. it uses a outboard recorder (Like the SWR-1), RAM Pack (The Venom) or a hard Driver array it is the size and form factor of the Arri 235 and uses it's accessories

>>WHAT ABOUT FOCUS ????
>>a camera-assistent told me (and she is really a top-focus-puller
>>and has worked with the viper on a movie for a full year) that
>>pulling focus with it is pure hardcore,because you have 2,5x less
>>depth of field than you have with a normal 35mm Camera.Is that
>>true ?That really would concerne me a little bit with steadicam! That
>>would mean if you shoot with a 25mm lens, you would have depth
>>of field like a 60mm , a 50mm=125mm and so on.

Hate to say this but she is wrong, you have more depth of field in HD that's one of the problems with it.
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#3 RobVanGelder

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 09:59 PM

Hate to say this but she is wrong, you have more depth of field in HD that's one of the problems with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well, that really depends on the lens configuration. When shooting with Digiprimes or dedicated 2/3" (zoom-)lenses, yes, you have more dept of field, generally. Which is why people use these lenses as wide-open as possible, with ND filters, etc. Still not an easy job for a focus puller .

But there are also setups where they use lenses that are made for 35mm, not using a groundglass to project on, but a intermediate lens that extends the focal plane (distance between mount and focal plane) so that it can reach the CCD´s behind the prism.
These can create a approx. 2,5 x enlargement, as you only use the centre piece of the image that is formed. Then you can have a 25mm lens with the dept of field of a 62mm.
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#4 sebastian matthias

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 02:10 AM

hey eric, hey rob !
first of all thank you for your replies. i was hoping some of you "good ones" would answer to my questions.
the Vince Pace sounds interesting (never heard of it ).do you have any links for their page or any contact infos.where could i find them ?
about the dalsa : that´s what i thought.doesn´t really look like a steadicam-camera!
the kinetta would be a fine camera (have a photo of garret with it) ,but it probably will take another 2 years or so till it´s actually avaiable.
the d-20........ will it ever be on the market........and will anyone be able to pay for it ???? (estimated cost:2,7 trillion bucks :lol: )
well and about the lenses: the DOP tested the digiprimes,didn´t like them and wants to use 35mm lenses! So that would really turn into hardcore focuspulling, i guess.
they want the picture to look like 35mm, but want to shoot digital.allways the same thing :blink:

if you have anymore suggestions or infos please let me know!!!!!!

thanks again for your detailed reply.

all the best to you

cheers

sebastian "still rather wants to do it on film" matthias
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#5 RobVanGelder

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 05:53 AM

Sebastian, the main problem here is the use of 35mm lenses on an imaging system that has a much smaller "capture element" .
The movie I worked on a few years ago used all Panavised CineAlte 900´s and we were using mainly 35mm zoom-lenses converted by Panavision for this format.
That means that you are almost always using focal lenghts comparable of 60 mm and longer although the lens indicates 25mm as minimum.

For the wider shots we could use the Digital primo´s but they came rarely out of the box.
The other option was a slightly converted 16mm zoomlens (6-27?) that worked very well for the steadicam, handheld and close-to-the-camera shots. This lens had a coverage much closer to the original design.

So if your DP insists on the use of straight lenses, without the convertors like the Pro35 or the Angenieux (there might be more options now) you will most likely have a mix of 16 and 35mm and possible digital primes as well.
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#6 sebastian matthias

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 02:46 PM

hey rob !
great idea using 16mm lenses ! never thought of that possibility.would that work if the movie is made for the big screen ,or do i loose quality?
actually ,it´s supposed to be on a very big sreen in a specially build theater.

thank you so much for that input

cheers

sebastian "gets closer and closer " matthias
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#7 RobVanGelder

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 09:29 PM

Sebastian, though people can argue that special designed HD lenses are sharper than 35 and 16mm lenses the main factor for the final resolution on the screen is the chip itself.

If you would measure the line-pairs/mm between the 3 kinds, you will probably find that the HD lenses do very well, but that the resolution of the 16 and 35mm lenses in the center of their circle of projection is not far off. And you will use this center with 35mm lenses and since the 2/3" chip is smaller than the super 16 format you will generally don´t notice any softness in the corners with these lenses as well.
Of course test every lens!

But: since it is already decided that the projection is on a VERY big screen I would seriously suggest to look into the Viper system. This system has much more pixels per mm as normal HD-cams and specially for widescreen it has a big advantage in resolution.

The workflow is somewhat different than the tape-based cameras but the overall quality is MUCH better.
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#8 sebastian matthias

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:03 PM

great reply,rob !
it all makes very much sense to me. so far the viper is the only camera out of all other sytems that we consider for our shoot. but just today the production told me that we might ending up doing 35mm for various reasons. main reason would be the big part of motion-control shoots wich might be a problem with the viper ,due to the not fully adjustable framerates.as i understood, the viper only allows some fixed framerates.
i wouldn´t mind shooting 35mm. like the sound off film running through the mag :rolleyes:
But i really would be interested using the viper as well.it´s a great thing.

all the best to you !

sebastian

ps:how´s the weather over there ? was it bankok ? monsun time allready?
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#9 RobVanGelder

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 11:06 PM

Yes, Monsoon now, poring rain and thunderstorms. But not all and every day luckely!
And the big difference, it is still 25+ degrees!


I´m not sure about the fiper and different framerates, but I don´t think that is the biggest problem.
Most of the time you want the moco-to go slower, like between 3 and 20 fps, as the moves are generally more stable then. That should not be a big problem, you can discard the extra frames later in post.
If it is about hign speed shots, much faster then 50 fps then you have to look into the cinecam, the highspeed video camera up to 1000 fps (highest resolution)

When you have a lot of Moco to do it is always nice to work with a camera and video output as accurate as possible, and it doesn´t come much better then the Viper. The Arri 435 with IVS does a good job with this also.

Wo are you working with for Moco? I know a good company that I worked with a lot (as operator/assistant in Holland) : www.motioncontroleurope.com
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#10 sebastian matthias

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:46 AM

hey rob !

to be honest: i don´t know exactly why the viper would not work wih moco,or why cutting out frames would be a problem in the post.
i just know that the dop wants to have the possibilty of undercranking.

if we´d do film the 435es would be our choice.

and for the moco: it will be build especially for this shoot because the model set is HUGE !

Do you know Tim Mendler ? He´s one of my buddies and i think he has worked for motioncontroleurope some times.Maybe you know each other?

all the best to you, and stay away from "those bars".

cheers

sebastian
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#11 RobVanGelder

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 11:10 PM

Hi Sebastian, I only go into those bars for professional reasons. :)
really , all the foreign filmcrews have at least one day in Soi Cowboy, for "establishing Thailand". As if all the ladies here are like those bargirls..... very dumb.

How big is that set? a Milo system can reach 3,40 meter, down to about 1 meter under the track.
And if that is not big enough it can be fitted with the long arm giving it another 2-3 meters or so.
After that there is always the "cyclops"..... but that is really a big one with lots of setup time.

Again, undercranking is not really a problem with video, a combination of skipping frames and adding motion blur is possible. And some camera´s can run on low framerate, like the Panasonic. But this one is not optimal for projection on a really big screen. I don´t know if the Viper can do low framerates if you want it "in camera".

Maybe we should move this to the cinematography forum... :)
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#12 sebastian matthias

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Posted 18 July 2005 - 12:46 AM

hey rob !
i didn´t mean to talk bad about thai girls at all and i definitely don´t think all of them are like theses bargirls.ment to be funny,but i guess it wasn´t.
sorry!
the set will be about 400 squre meters and i think the idea of moving this topic to the cinematography forum is actually a very good one.
i will ask around there and at CML as soon as i´m done with the shoot.
we will meet there.


all the best to you


sebastian
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