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Cinetronic 2 heating issues


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#1 GregBubb

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:45 PM

It’s not often I go on forums period. If I do it’s to correct some misinformation on a piece of XCS gear. However in this case it's for a more practical reason. For all the operators out there that I have stated to me over the years “I wish I knew about that before I bought xyz” piece of equipment before I bought it”

 

Last weekend 6/22 I was repairing/updating gear for a number of operators. Two of which had the Cinemonitor two. After the first repair was complete, I was testing the sled monitor and letting it burn in for typically 4 hrs to watch for any failures in my repair work or component failure. After a few hours of running the sled and monitor I turned to look to see if it was still running and I noticed  the Cinemonitor’s bottom portion of the screen was 1/3 black, top 2/3rds fine. I of course went over to look at it and could immediately see that the pixels had over heated. They turn black on LCD’s when overheated. I grabbed my inferred thermometer and took a few readings.

I turned the monitor off, let it cool down, and tested it again. It was fine. However the difference was the sunlight was now behind the trees in my shop and didn’t shine through the widow where the monitor was sitting on the bench.

            I set up the monitor outside facing the sunlight. The monitor settings were at 50% for brightness and contrast with no LED’s lights on the touch panel.  It was 72 degrees outside, in 17 min 47 sec. the monitor again over heated.

            I grabbed the second Cinemonitor 2 monitor that was here. Set it exactly the same brightness/contrast feeding it 14 vdc from a power supply, same thing happened in 19 minutes.  It failed.

            I had a third LCD screen on Tuesday.  79 degrees outside, same setup, same failure.

The longer the screen sits in the sun the worse the heat build up on the LCD the greater the pixel failure on the monitor.

            I know this screen manufacturer (1024 x 600 pixel, 900-1K nit output) and the company that does the aftermarket backlights. These companies are like steadicam manufacturers. There are a half a dozen in the world, so it’s pretty easy to know the companies and specifications for engineering a high output screen.

            A test like this is pretty basic to run. In fact environmental testing of products should be done on all components at all times prior to marketing. This monitor is marketed as a full sunlight readable monitor if I am not mistaken?

            Now there may be an off chance that I was doing something wrong in my setup/testing. Cinetronics response to one of the operators went something like this “ We have had the monitor out in the sunlight and have not seen the problem. And that it hasn’t been a production issue”

Well, take a look at this photo which I had taken. Its shows a fraction of the pixel failure after a short time because the longer you let it sit in the sun the greater the pixel failure. I am told by an electronic engineer friend at Smith Medical that you should not do repeated over heating and that it could damage the screen permanently.  They couldn’t, however, tell me the number of failures it takes to achieve that point of permanent damage because of the elevated light output of the screen we are talking about.

            I will be glad to repeat any test if Cinetronic wishes, to show them the failure so they can see it because they are unaware. Contact me and we can do that. This is pretty basic mode of operation for steadicam operators. We are on location, we are outside and the sun is shining on the monitor screen, but it’s turning black.

I do see an opportunity to have the grips run 4x4’s over the top of us. And on a day like today where it’s 95 in the valley, that sounds pretty good.

                “The new standard” we have issues.

Greg Bubb

 

 

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#2 RonBaldwin

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:23 PM

Greg -- it's so great to see you pop on here! Thank you for the info...I am not a cinetronic owner but hung out at their booth at the steadicam expo and played a bit with the new monitor. It was on the whole time in direct sunlight, too damn hot to touch with my hand but I didn't see any issues with the display (possibly it was the coolness of the Big Lebowski which they had playing on the monitors?). Anyways, it's always good to identify stuff like this so it can be addressed.

I am quickly becomming the minority by still flying my tb6 whenever I am outside in the daytime...still love the poop out of it and can't give it up.

Ron
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#3 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:25 AM

Greg, I too saw the same thing that Ron saw both this year and last year, in fact I think you saw the Cinetronic monitors on display last year. In the 2+ years I've been running the cinetronics monitor I've never seen the behavior that you describe and like you know doing a HD show the rig may get parked on a stand but never turned off. Heat or cold I have zero image issues on the rig or when I use it to operator conventional or crane work with.

Just my $.02


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#4 thomas-english

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

If this is a fear am I correct that regularly turning your sled off is a working solution. I often don't turn it off between takes but always between setups. There is also a redbyte, a preston and a few other components on a sled that could overheat. 


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#5 Robert Starling SOC

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:52 AM

Nice to see you here Greg!

 

You've easily forgotten more about the technical side of our gear than I'll ever know so I won't pretend to know anything about the technical side.

 

In practical experience and the hot Vegas sun I've never seen this problem with the Cinetronic Gen 1 or 2.  Both have run all day in direct sun in temps well above 90 degs with a camera signal feed and I've never seen this happen.  I'm not doubting your test and results but I've never seen it in the field.

 

Maybe it's a new component in the monitors but I ran the latest version as of CineGear expo all day long with no shade in direct sun.

 

Surely Chris will chime in here at some point and get it sorted out.

 

Robert


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#6 GregBubb

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:16 AM

      One needs to remember that the Cinetronic 1 and the Cinetronics 2 monitor screens are NOT the same. Let along the housing. So one can not compare them or performance. Nor can one compare the Cine 2 screen in a Cine 1 chassis. However I don’t know what the end result would be because that is not what I had in hand.

       It’s an easy test to repeat to see if there were 3 bad screens out of 3 that were tested.

If its 75 degrees or above in the afternoon sun, bring your Cine 2 monitor outside facing the sun, turn it on and provide it a video signal and wait. It can’t be anymore basic than that.

Or if your close by, swing over we will have a cup of coffee or beer and see what happens.

 

Greg B.

 


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#7 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

      One needs to remember that the Cinetronic 1 and the Cinetronics 2 monitor screens are NOT the same. Let along the housing. So one can not compare them or performance. Nor can one compare the Cine 2 screen in a Cine 1 chassis. However I don’t know what the end result would be because that is not what I had in hand.

       It’s an easy test to repeat to see if there were 3 bad screens out of 3 that were tested.

If its 75 degrees or above in the afternoon sun, bring your Cine 2 monitor outside facing the sun, turn it on and provide it a video signal and wait. It can’t be anymore basic than that.

 

 

Greg, I do exactly that everyday with my Cinetronic 2, I've never had the issue you speak of, same for when I ran the Cinetronic 1and for the Cinetronic Assistants monitor that we have been running for the last three weeks. I've been running all of them longer than anyone else and simply have never seen the issue you are talking about


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#8 GregBubb

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

     Perfect.   That’s the way it should be. Plug it in turn it on, no issue such as this.

     I guess that means every owner needs to run a simple test in order to figure out which units fail and which ones do not?

 

    One more bit of information here on the 50% brightness/contrast setting that was on the monitors I had in hand.  If there have been any software updates to the menu system, that base value of 50 (monitors scale went from 0-100 for the brightness/contrast settings) can be completely different from one software rev. level to another and then could have a different base light output. Again I have no idea if they have done any revisions on this scaling.                                                                                                                                                                                But if you are running a test, one simple should understand this possible difference in brightness and contrast numerical setting that can occur when revision level changes are made.   

 

     As the above photo shows, the screen to me was at its most viewable outdoor setting. Beyond the 65 setting in brightness/contrast just did very little to improve the image quality. So each owner would have to be the best judge of what “daylight viewable is”.

 

     It also could be that there have been different screens involved over its short duration and that the latest screen is the issue, again I have no idea.  However I know a few operators who would like to find out and get resolution to the issue, including me now.

     Again I would be more than happy in the next 3 or 4 days to run out to Cinetronics to have them repeat my testing with them, just give me call. I am as interested in this issue as the next operator.

Greg B.


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#9 Ants Martin Vahur

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

Hi!

 

I think it could be also due to the fact that in the field we almost never leave the monitor on for a long period of time while not moving the rig. It's constantly on the move, and motion is also cooling down the components. But if you leave the monitor or any other accessory on and don't move it then its temperature will rise much quicker unless there's atleast a breeze.

 

My thoughts..

AntsMartin


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#10 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 08:38 PM

Hi!

 

I think it could be also due to the fact that in the field we almost never leave the monitor on for a long period of time while not moving the rig. It's constantly on the move, and motion is also cooling down the components. But if you leave the monitor or any other accessory on and don't move it then its temperature will rise much quicker unless there's atleast a breeze.

 

I do leave it one for a long time Ants, I said that in my previous posts. The SLIGHT breeze created by our movement does next to nothing for cooling anything


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#11 William Demeritt

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

I just got my Cinetronic gen 2 today, and I'm interested in trying to repeat this test.

 

Greg, can you please describe in detail how you let the monitor "burn in"? Presumably attached to the sled, 14vdc coming from the sled. Is the sled hanging on the dock? Is it sitting on a work bench on the monitor and battery?

 

Also, you mentioned that you used an IR thermometer while diagnosing the issue; did you check the temperature of the LCD panel display? The rear of the monitor? Sides? What were the temperatures you metered, or was it just the ambient temperature? 

 

I'm working with the monitor tonight, so I assume I won't see any kind of thermal stress going on (unless Pasadena is hotter at night than I'm aware of). However, tomorrow I plan on goofing off with the gear, so we'll see. I may go buy an IR thermometer at Harbor Freight just to meter my own tests. 

 

If the heat dissipation is an actual issue, I'm already considering adding heatsinks to the rear panel using thermal adhesive. If the front panel is facing the sun, then the back will assuredly be in the shade, and since California feels so chilly in the shade, I would think that'd make a great dent in the heat inside the monitor. 

 

http://www.amazon.co...G/ref=de_a_smtd


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#12 GregBubb

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

William

    I set the cinemonitor 2 on a sled case outside the garage door. It was early afternoon and I faced the monitor screen towards the sun, as if you would when check its ability to be viewed in direct sunlight.

   The monitor brightness/contrast setting was at its 50% numerical value.

    I powered the monitor off a regulated AC-DC power supply set at 14 Vdc. A battery will do.

   An HD signal 1920 x 1080 into the monitor from my HD pattern generator.

   The monitor was tilted up at about a standard viewing angle that one would use if on a sled so no additional heat would have been produced by it laying flat.

   Turned it on and set a timer and sat and watched it. The first indication of the failure took less than 20 minutes.  Which by all standards in nothing when it comes to running a monitor on a shoot day, or at least for me.

    I would bet that the base ambient temperature will make difference when the failure will appear. It was 75 on that day.  So if its 85 tomorrow it may take less time if your failure occurs.

   If you like to bring it up and test it here, you’re welcome.

 

   The temperature reading I had taken off the monitor was for my own curiosity, and to cross reference the readings against the data sheets produced by the manufacturer of the monitor screen.

   I will attach them here for your information. Please be aware that Samsung states a NIT output, which is not the same as this monitor screen output. Everything else is the same with the exception of NITs and power requirements.    The aftermarket company that supplies this screen increase it to 900- 1k NITS which of course is not useable. In fact you can prove that to yourself tomorrow by driving the screen to the max 100% brightness and contrast and see how long it takes before failure if any. It would be even quicker.

File is to big to attach here, email me if you wish it sent to you.

 

Greg Bubb

 

 


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#13 Jens Piotrowski SOC

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:58 AM

What was the "backlight" set at? That is different from the brightness and contrast in the menu.
Looking at the specs. The maximum operating temperature is 140 degrees Fahrenheit. That is easily achieved without even powering up the monitor in full sun. An active cooling option, switchable fan, might be a good option for future developments by any manufacturer.
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#14 Alan Rencher

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:46 PM

Since Chris mentioned that SmallHD's new High-Bright monitor had the same screen in it, I thought I would ask what they have done to avoid this issue in their monitor. This is the response that I got:

 

Hi, 
The Dp7 High bright is equipped with dual switchable fans so this will not happen with ours. We already have extensivily tested it in hot conditions. 
Thanks
Dave


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#15 GregBubb

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:35 PM

Alan

     I think small HD is advertising a 1280 x 800 resolution screen in the monitor. I know this screen well enough and have tested it and a few other versions  by different manufacturers of this resoultion.   

    Cinetronics is using a 1024 x 600 screen, enhanced by the same company but two different screens all together. Not the same brightness or resolution.

 

Jens

 

   I don’t know these monitor settings that well. I had the monitor at what I would assume is its highest brightness setting ( using the up/down arrows front panel)  or at least whatever it took to see an bright image on the screen outside in the direct sun.   But the original 50 settings on brightness/contrast was not turn up on the test

  I would have to believe that the 50 in the menu setting is not half the light output of the screen.  In fact I know that is true on the screens I had in front of me.  And that the front panel up/down buttons allow the user to move 0-100% (backlight off to 100%) of the 50 value.   In my mind this is how I think it is programmed, but it may not be. Cinetronics has to answer that question for you.

 

   I must have had the only 3 screens that failed. I didn’t get a call from anyone at Cinetronics about the test results or if I could repeat them over there for them. So it must not be an issue. My hope is the owners of these screens can get them replaced upon their request so this is no longer an issue. And after replacement I would gladly spend a little time retesting one of them.

 

Greg Bubb


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