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Recelling Lith-ion Batteries


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#1 Brett Manyluk

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 11:22 PM

Hey guys,

Checked the previous forum and didn't see anything on recelling Lith-ion batts (sony BP 60's). Anyone know someone who does this and prices?

Thanks again,

Brett
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#2 Markus Rave

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 04:57 AM

There is no way around the cells Sony sells, since the electronics of that battery are also (guess what) made by Sony especially for their cells. Since LiIon batts are so special in their components you cannot just replace the cells by any other brand as you can with NiCads or NiMH.
Use them until they die and say farewell. Sad but true, since I have the same problem right now. Batts are 5 years old and go down slowly in capacity. Also don´t hold their power very well over some time.
There is light in the tunnel though: BP-IL 75 replace the BP-L 60 and have 25% more capacity and cost about 100 Euro more than the old ones did.

Good luck

Markus
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#3 Mitch Gross

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 02:57 PM

You pay for that light weight power. Lith-ions generally have half the recharge cycles of NiCad or NiMH. Good news is that you should top them off instead of letting them drain, and this will actually extend their life some. If you think your batt is getting low, just swap it and recharge. Don't drain it down. I'm surprised you've sucked 5 years from it.
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#4 Markus Rave

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 03:18 PM

Well I guess, I just did it right. I never cared for anything except using them numbered. Charged them when they were only half down, third or even have not been used at all. I am still a fan of Sony batts though. I recently had to discard a couple of NP-1 batts only 2 years old and have been told that the new high capacity cells in the NP-1 has a short life span. Too bad if the Battery lets you down a couple of days before a shoot. So I prefer to spend more money on these items and have more safety. For next week I have to rent NP-1 since I could not get the new ones fast enough. The Sony´s are not like new but still work.

Markus
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#5 Mitch Gross

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 07:49 PM

If you want cheap NP-1 LiON batts, check out Switronix. They have 60w batts and a 4-bay simultaneous charger that are simple, reliable and very inexpensive. AlArt Video in Long Island (AlArt.com) sells the batts for only $182 each and the charger for $625. That's around 1/3 the price for comparable Sony or Anton/Bauer LiON products. I know a couple of cameramen who own them and they swear by them--and these are guys who abuse the hell out of them by using obie lights and draining them dead repeatedly.
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#6 Markus Rave

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 02:26 AM

Well, I use the LiIons only on my DVW 700. You need the dovetail here and other brands are not far away enough from Sony to justify the switch.
On my Baer-Bel sled I use NiCad NP-1 since in an emergency you get those everywhere even from the sound department. Just like it seems to be with AB batts in the US. Maybe this is the only difference in our both worlds? And we haven´t found out?
NP-1 13.2 V with 2.5 amphours sell for 75 Euro each and will power any workhorse even ramping up like the 435. Those are available with 3.2 amphours as NiMH but I am afraid they might let me down some time when working with a heavy loaded camera and all the power drainers on my rig. So I keep NiCads available and change more often. But thanks for you hint with the Switronix. I check if I can get hold of them over here in Germany as dovetail versions.

Markus
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#7 Mitch Gross

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 12:00 PM

Just to expand you battery base for your camera, you might look into getting an adapter box so that you can use NP-1 bricks on your V-mount camera. IDX sells them and you can even get them in a double box that holds two NP-1s for greater running time and hot-swapping.
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#8 barryidx

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 02:11 PM

Gentlemen,

Li-Ion batteries do not get re-celled for the following reasons.

1. The cases are hermetically sealed and breaking or resetting the case will no longer meet safety regulations.
2. Each battery cell inside the pack should be matched and balanced to each other. Then a PCB is attached and programmed appropiately for manging each cell in realtime.

So what I'm saying is by the time you replace the case, cells and reprogram of the PCB there would be no cost savings.

Additionaly the comment regarding life of Li-Ion is not acurate. Generally NiCd and Li-Ion are rated at 500 life cycles, where NiNH is rated at 250-300 based on the manufacturer. Because Li-Ion has no memory effect and if cared for properly, you will see better than 500 cycles.

IDX has manufactuered 14.4V Li-ion battery systems for over 8 years, the longest of anyone. Our pricing is extremely competitive and I'm sure you'll find the best return on your investment using IDX systems. We would ask for your consideration during your next purchase?

Regards,
Barry Rubin
General Manager
IDX System Technology Inc.
barry@idx.tv
www.idx.tv
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#9 Osvaldo Silvera SOC

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 09:51 AM

Barry,
Thanks for the info. I've been using IDX batteries since I can remember, first non Lith-ion then the Lith- Ion with probably every Sony video camera made. Superior product!. Accord Productions in Miami, has probably 40 of your NP1 style batteries, They have switched to all Lith-Ion in their 3 package camera set up. 90% of the batteries are used til dead everyday, powering both the camera in a 2 NP-1 style system and the power hungry Sony 8" monitors for the field. They have been serving them well for almost 4 years since their last batch battery purchase. Travelled the world, in very hostile natural and un natural enviroments and have never let us down.. The LED indicator is reliable and great to have when you aren't sure if the batt came of the charger or if it's been sitting there uncharged. Thanks for the great power.

Osvaldo Silvera
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#10 barryidx

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 10:18 AM

Osvaldo,

Thank you so much for the kinds words about IDX and our Li-Ion products. I would enjoy speaking to you about your experiences using our products.

Please call me sometime. (310) 891-2800

Regards,
Barry
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#11 barryidx

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 10:32 AM

Markus,

Can you help me understand more of your use of NP-style NiCd with the 435?

I have been working with Panavision using our Li-Ion ENDURA batteries in series (to obtain the required 24V+) for the 435. When ramping up the 435 to high frame rates we have seen inrushes as high as 14 amps.

Can you briefly explain the configuration when powering the 435 with your NiCd NP's? How many batteries must you use? Are they configured in series to handle the 24V?

Thank you in advance for your help. I'm still learning about film cameras and appreciate any knowledge you can pass on.

Best regards,
Barry
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#12 Markus Rave

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:27 AM

Barry,

after long discussions on the net and here, I bought simple NP-1 NiCad Batteries, 11 cells giving 13,2 Volts and rated 2.5 amp/hrs. (60 USD each including tax) I am using a Baer-Bel sled on which I had AB Trimpacs fist. After a while, mainly because I wanted a solid battery cage which will hold the rig with camera when I want to set it down somewhere (sometimes I missuse the assistants leg), I switched to regular NP-1 housings in the first Baer-Bel battery cage. The Baer-Bel has 3 battery compartments, two of them are switchable in series or in row. That gives me either 13.2 or 26.4 Volts and runs everything. Rumours went around that some ARRI´s would blow a fuse, when powered with 28.8 Volts, so I opted for 13,2 Volts instead of 14.4. NiCADs can be really drained when you need the power. At the time I had to choose no other battery system would give the requested amount of power. Li-Ion will break down when a 435 tries to suck around 10 Amps when you ramp up. Even NiMH would do so. I heard they don´t now, but 3 years ago they did. In Germany you get NP-1 at every corner at a fraction of the price of other brands. Now I can use NiCAD for heavy drainers, NiMH for light drainers and even Li-Ion for video work. Saves a LOT! of money which I invested in a Walter Klassen Harness. By the way the healthiest buy in Steadicam world ever.

I have some pics of the rig, but I am sure Markus Bernhardt has better ones.

Hope this helped

Markus
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