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Anton/Bauer PROFORMER batteries


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#1 pauldudeck

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 02:22 PM

For a limited time only, Anton/Bauer will be offering the ProFormer battery. We understand that the removal of this battery from the Anton/Bauer product line has affected a lot of you steadicam users. We are going to be making either one or two production runs of ProFormer batteries. This will be it though. Once they are sold out, we will no longer manfacture them.

These will be available directly from Anton/Bauer only. Anton/Bauer dealers will not have access to these batteries and they will only tell you that they are no longer in production.

Please contact Anton/Bauer direct at (800)422-3473 and ask for either Paul Dudeck, Ken Cyr, Bob Pennington or Scott Keyworth. You can also email us at websales@antonbauer.com.

The price of the ProFormer batteries is $175.00 each, but again there are limited quantites available. Place your order now! We expect these batteries to ship at the end of May 2005.

Thank you for your continued support.
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#2 Michael Stumpf

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 10:25 AM

On a side note....owning 10 Proformers myself, I relied on them for
the 435 (especially high speed)
About a year ago I got 2 Dionic 90 Lithiums and love them, and am
considering getting a few more of them to replace ALL my proformers
as the proformers die out.

BUT I have yet to have to run a 435 at high speed (over 60 fps)
with the Dionic 90's...was hoping to get a chance on a commercial last
week, but nope.

Anyway...I need to know from someone IF they've run a 435 at high speed
or regular/high speed in cold (say sub freezing weather) with the
Dionic 90's???
If it went okay and no problems, I'll pass on this additional Proformer
opportunity. If the Dionics won't run a 435 at high speed, I'd order a
couple more Proformers.

Thanks
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#3 WillArnot

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:33 AM

I'm in the exact same position.

I bought 8 Dionic 90's and fly them in pairs with one Proformer. This is a formidable combination and will run about 20 mags. It's incredible. Sometimes 2 days without changing batteries. I have drastically reduced the amount of batteries I have to lug around. With 8 Dionics and 4 Proformers I have 4 sets, and this is almost overkill, but at least half the size and weight of my previous 2 battery set up of 1 TrimPak and 1 Proformer. I had to have 8 Pairs though to feel totally covered.

The charge times on the Dionics are way better than I kept hearing. They come up marginally slower than the Proformers, but then achieve a balanced cell status (solid green on charger vs. flashing green) far quicker than the NiCads.

I too am waiting to really test them in a hi amp spike situation. For my gyro set up I leave just one of the Dionics on the sled for balance and then mount the other Dionic and Proformer and 1 Hytron 120 Pro Pac in my Gyro back pack. This is also an amazing set up that will run all the usual hoo-ha plus 3 KS-4 gyros all day on one battery set up. The thing I like most with this set up is that when I pull the gyros I go back to the 2 Dionics and 1 Proformer and continue cycling the same ones, just eliminate the Pro Pac from the equation. This means I have all the power in the world with the 4 sets of Dionics and Proformers, and then 4 Pro Pacs.

Not to get sidetracked too much. My point is that I am hoping by mixing in some NiCad to the equation (even tho the Proformers are a sub C cell size), this will offset the tendency for the Li Ions to shut down on Hi amp spikes.

Of course Mr. Bubb's XCS sled is key in managing these mixed battery chemistries and maximising the battery life. God I love that sled.

My only reference to your question Michael is that Jimmy McConkey out-fitted his Pro II sled with all Dionic 90's to do "STAY". That was all hi speed 435, all nights on the Brooklyn Bridge in December and January. ie. Very cold. Apparently all went very well and Jimmy is sold on the Dionics.

It also helps that the Dionics have come down from over $500 to less than $400 each. Still pricey no doubt.
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#4 pauldudeck

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 07:54 AM

I'm in the exact same position.

I bought 8 Dionic 90's and fly them in pairs with one Proformer.  This is a formidable combination and will run about 20 mags.  It's incredible.  Sometimes 2 days without changing batteries.  I have drastically reduced the amount of batteries I have to lug around.  With 8 Dionics and 4 Proformers I have 4 sets, and this is almost overkill, but at least half the size and weight of my previous 2 battery set up of 1 TrimPak and 1 Proformer.  I had to have 8 Pairs though to feel totally covered. 

The charge times on the Dionics are way better than I kept hearing.  They come up marginally slower than the Proformers, but then achieve a balanced cell status (solid green on charger vs. flashing green) far quicker than the NiCads.

I too am waiting to really test them in a hi amp spike situation.  For my gyro set up I leave just one of the Dionics on the sled for balance and then mount the other Dionic and Proformer and 1 Hytron 120 Pro Pac in my Gyro back pack.  This is also an amazing set up that will run all the usual hoo-ha plus 3 KS-4 gyros all day on one battery set up.  The thing I like most with this set up is that when I pull the gyros I go back to the 2 Dionics and 1 Proformer and continue cycling the same ones, just eliminate the Pro Pac from the equation.  This means I have all the power in the world with the 4 sets of Dionics and Proformers, and then 4 Pro Pacs.

Not to get sidetracked too much.  My point is that I am hoping by mixing in some NiCad to the equation (even tho the Proformers are a sub C cell size), this will offset the tendency for the Li Ions to shut down on Hi amp spikes.

Of course Mr. Bubb's XCS sled is key in managing these mixed battery chemistries and maximising the battery life.  God I love that sled.

My only reference to your question Michael is that Jimmy McConkey out-fitted his Pro II sled with all Dionic 90's to do "STAY".  That was all hi speed 435, all nights on the Brooklyn Bridge in December and January.  ie. Very cold.  Apparently all went very well and Jimmy is sold on the Dionics.

It also helps that the Dionics have come down from over $500 to less than $400 each.  Still pricey no doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#5 pauldudeck

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 08:01 AM

I am glad to hear that you guys have been getting great success with the Dionic 80/90 batteries. The 435 may or may not work with the Dionic 80/90 batteries as we have not been able to get any feedback from any steadicam users either. The situation is this; the maximum current output of the Dionic 80/90 (and all lithium ion batteries) is 7 amps. It is not like a NiCd or NiMh where it can accept the over current for a short period of time. As I understand the 435 can hit peek current draws of up to 18 amps on start up. If this is true, the battery will shut down. If you can get by this spike with a ProFormer, Trimpac or ProPac battery, then the Dionics will run the camera no problem.

One other side not is that Anton/Bauer also has a Dionic 160 battery, which is a 160 watt hour lithium ion battery. This battery has special lithium ion cells in it which can handle up to 10 amps of current. This is the ONLY lithium ion battery currently manfactured that will do that. The list price of the battery is $995.00 and it is subject to Class 9 Hazardous rules when shipping or traveling. The rules state that you are allowed to hand carry two of these batteries on a plane when traveling though.

Thanks for all your continued support guys.

Paul
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#6 Brad Hruboska

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:17 AM

I am glad to hear that you guys have been getting great success with the Dionic 80/90 batteries. The 435 may or may not work with the Dionic 80/90 batteries as we have not been able to get any feedback from any steadicam users either. The situation is this; the maximum current output of the Dionic 80/90 (and all lithium ion batteries) is 7 amps. It is not like a NiCd or NiMh where it can accept the over current for a short period of time. As I understand the 435 can hit peek current draws of up to 18 amps on start up. If this is true, the battery will shut down. If you can get by this spike with a ProFormer, Trimpac or ProPac battery, then the Dionics will run the camera no problem.

One other side not is that Anton/Bauer also has a Dionic 160 battery, which is a 160 watt hour lithium ion battery. This battery has special lithium ion cells in it which can handle up to 10 amps of current. This is the ONLY lithium ion battery currently manfactured that will do that. The list price of the battery is $995.00 and it is subject to Class 9 Hazardous rules when shipping or traveling. The rules state that you are allowed to hand carry two of these batteries on a plane when traveling though.

Thanks for all your continued support guys.

Paul

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#7 Brad Hruboska

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 09:18 AM

For a limited time only, Anton/Bauer will be offering the ProFormer battery. We understand that the removal of this battery from the Anton/Bauer product line has affected a lot of you steadicam users. We are going to be making either one or two production runs of ProFormer batteries. This will be it though. Once they are sold out, we will no longer manfacture them.

These will be available directly from Anton/Bauer only. Anton/Bauer dealers will not have access to these batteries and they will only tell you that they are no longer in production.

Please contact Anton/Bauer direct at (800)422-3473 and ask for either Paul Dudeck, Ken Cyr, Bob Pennington or Scott Keyworth. You can also email us at websales@antonbauer.com.

The price of the ProFormer batteries is $175.00 each, but again there are limited quantites available. Place your order now! We expect these batteries to ship at the end of May 2005.

Thank you for your continued support.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#8 Benjamin Treplin

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 01:13 PM

This is the ONLY lithium ion battery currently manfactured that will do that.


Paul,
I'm not quite sure this is true. I own 130Wh Li-Ion batteries from SWIT and they kick a 435 to 150fps. So I guess they take 10 Amps. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Best

a lot of quotes in here.
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#9 pauldudeck

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 01:21 PM

Benjamin,

I am not quite sure about the SWIT batteries. If they are using the same graphite lithium ion cell that everyone else is using (18x65 in size) then it cannot handle 10 amps of current. If it does, then it lacks the proper over-current protect circuitry in it and then all bets are off.

I am not too familiar with that battery so I don't want to say anything that is not true.

Could you find out what they spec the battery for maximum current drain?

Thanks
Paul
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#10 PeterAbraham

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:02 PM

Nothing technical to add, but a very heartfelt thank you to Paul and the folks at Anton/Bauer. These guys set the standard in battery technology about 25 years ago and are still at it. ( Probably more.... ).

Nice that they respond to a niche need this way, and nice that Paul's active on the boards, asking questions and helping us out. Excellent !

Peter Abraham- who has stood at Paul's desk while doing battery stuff.
New York
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#11 Benjamin Treplin

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 06:02 AM

Paul,
You're right. I asked my distributor and he said 7A max.
How does or better should a Li-Ion battery electronics measure to protect the cells. Voltage or current or both?
When I tested my batteries with 435 I had a voltage of 32V at start up it went down to 25V somewhere between 120 fps and 150 fps and back to 28V at 150 fps.
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#12 pauldudeck

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:42 AM

"How does or better should a Li-Ion battery electronics measure to protect the cells. Voltage or current or both?"

It really depends on the manufacturer. Most manufacturers will now use a resettable PEPI fuse which is internal to the battery. The PEPI device will measure both current and temperature to determine an overload. With a lithium ion battery, if you don't prevent the overload, the battery can be permanently damaged.


"When I tested my batteries with 435 I had a voltage of 32V at start up it went down to 25V somewhere between 120 fps and 150 fps and back to 28V at 150 fps."

When you put two batteries in series to get the 28.8v volts, you will have an operating range of approximately 24-34 volts. When a load is applied, the voltage will drop. What you are seeing is a high current spike which drops the voltage to about 25v, then the current drops off and the voltage rises to where it normally should be, around 28v. I hope this answers your questions.

Paul
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#13 Benjamin Treplin

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 11:52 AM

Paul,
is it possible to calculate the applied current using the voltage drop of the battery?
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#14 pauldudeck

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 07:45 AM

Paul,
is it possible to calculate the applied current using the voltage drop of the battery?



Not without having a college degree in Electrical Engineering!!! Just kidding. It is possible as all things are, but it is not practical. You would need to monitor the voltage of the battery at all times and the amount of current being pulled from the battery. It's just not worth the time........

Paul
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#15 RobVanGelder

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:38 AM

Paul, maybe it IS worth the time to investigate how long the maximum spike is. Appearently, although the cells are protected, the fuse doesn´t kick in/shut off, as many operators have experienced. That could mean that the fuse is not acting fast enough.

On the other hand, we as operator are happy that the batteries can start that 435 to 150 fps, but we don´t really know if and how much damage is done internally.

Is that maximum rating of 7 amps for a certain time so it makes more sense when using lights or such things that have a high continuous current draw?
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