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Stick together!!!!


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#1 Santiago Yniguez

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:05 PM

I just noticed a posting on craigs list for a Steadicam op.....$100/day.....for just a few hours a day. Oh, by the way, they have an "A list" oscar nominee. I know somebody will end up taking this but for the love of god, lets stick together and make this as hard as possible for them to get quality. Let them get someone who "learned" Steadicam by buying the book and watching the EFP DVD.

PEACE!!

Santi
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#2 Tom Daigon

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:47 PM

Let them get someone who "learned" Steadicam by buying the book and watching the EFP DVD.

PEACE!!

Santi


Hey, I resemble that remark ;-)
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#3 Nicholas Davidoff

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:12 AM

I just noticed a posting on craigs list for a Steadicam op.....$100/day.....for just a few hours a day. Oh, by the way, they have an "A list" oscar nominee. I know somebody will end up taking this but for the love of god, lets stick together and make this as hard as possible for them to get quality. Let them get someone who "learned" Steadicam by buying the book and watching the EFP DVD.

PEACE!!

Santi


HA HA!!! Stick together... What a concept...

I think one lesson learned here is at these modern day rates, who could possibly make any money as a steadicam operator? Your investment will never pay off. You've gotta be an idiot to dump $50K+ into a rig so you can work for $100 a day. The market is dead. Get out while you can!!!

In the meantime, if you want to fight these ridiculous Craigslist posts you should immediately FLAG, FLAG, FLAG them!

Or perhaps send them a friendly letter explaining why their offer may be a bit below industry standards. For example, here's the nice, personal email I sent to this particular feature film production:

"F@#% you and your oscar and your actor and your piece of s#*% movie and your ridiculous $100 a day for steadicam."

Warm regards,

~ Nick Davidoff
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#4 Philip J. Martinez SOC

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:32 AM

Don’t we have labor laws in America? Wouldn’t it be illegal topost a help wanted ad for a job at the supermarket if the employer did not haveall the proper insurance? Isn’t there minimum wage in America isn’t it illegalto pay people less then this? Why is it OK for Mandy or Craigs list to violate labor laws in America. How dochange the way these websites do business?



If you had toprovide production insurance before you posted a job listing it would be astart.


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#5 Diggy Breiling

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 11:23 AM

Newbie Here -
Damn, $100 a day - what kind of an idiot would take that! I read previously that Steadicam Ops should make more than a DIT, as a newbie I didn't even know what a DIT was but I figured it was a "Dude In Tent".

I think Nicks Suggestions were good. Perhaps post here on this forum which Craiglist Location or a link to the lowball offer is in an then everyone can go to it an Flag, a few could also send a polite letter also as suggested.

I would also suggest posting some offers on Craigslist to work for real rates and resist the race to the bottom. If there are 4 or 5 offers for $2000 per day and none for $100 ( they get flagged ) they may get the point. Just a thought.

Anyway, I'm not really in the business but have great admiration for the work you Pro's do. Keep up the quality!
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#6 John atkinson

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:05 AM

I thought Craigslist was cracking down on prostitution listings!

JA
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#7 Alfeo Dixon SOC

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:10 PM

I thought Craigslist was cracking down on prostitution listings!

Even Prostitutes don't go for that low a rate... In fact, they are probably more in line with $100/hour

Hell, come to think it... $100/day is more like a crack whore rate... and they are going to demand that you supply the crack and room!!! Get a grip guys.... JUST SAY NO!!!


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#8 Nicholas Davidoff

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 08:31 PM

Hey guys, in case you're curious, here's the reply I got from the $100/day producers whom I sent that friendly email to. I somehow feel like I'm no longer in the running for this job:

From: Production Eagles <prodeagles@gmail.com>
Subject: Steadicam Operator
To: nicholasdavidoff@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:16 PM

Ahaha you are so funny David. It's so funny that you actually just worked with this great actor and he loves art and filmmaking. He appreciates it so much that he's going to work on this project just to support young filmmakers, but you can only hate a low budget film, you only work for the studios at $1000/day right? Sorry we can't add 1 more 0 to your ego. Where is all this anger coming from? I am just thinking why do you go look for work on cl if you are so experienced? Peace and we shall never cross roads again...

--------------

Here's the reply I sent them back ---

I don't know who your actor is any more than I know who you are. And regardless of actors and oscars and who and what not, the rate you're offering for any feature length project is insulting. We are professional craftsmen and even the worst of us go for at least a few hundred dollars for a half day. I'm sure you'll find some hack to work on your project. But it's people like you who are taking advantage of hard working craftspeople investing in a business and trying to make a living. The rates you're offering are not only below our standards but below legal minimum wage as well. Illegal immigrant shit shovelers at Home Depot make more money. Posting the rate you did is very damaging to our particular industry as operators, because other producers will perceive that as the new "going rate" for steadicam. Others will start offering the same rates and our wives and children will starve and our homes will go into foreclosure. This is where the "anger" comes from. This is the damage people like you do to people like us when you publicly post the shit offers which you did. This is the view from where we're standing. In the future, at least do like others and request a rate and reel and let people know your offer in a private conversation. Lucky for me, I'm a working operator and I don't rely too much on small craigslist jobs. But postings like this get around our community. And I feel a sense of duty not only to my steadicam colleagues but to other film professionals to tell people like you to go f&*% yourselves.

~ Nick

---------------

Hmm, I hope I'm not burning any major bridges.
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#9 Osvaldo Silvera SOC

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:35 PM

The fact that the poster did not post his name in the response is a cowardly sign, and the ACTOR should not be doing this in the first place, a great actor is nothing if the project doesn't come together. if a great performance isn't captured, recorded and edited right, then displayed properly it's all crap.

Oh well. Let's figure out who this is and post their name. call a spade a spade dammit.
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#10 Alfeo Dixon SOC

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:28 PM

Nick,

Wow, I would say that bridge was nuked! Guys, I don't think insulting people that can potentially hire you is going to help, no matter how idiotic the offers are. The best way to beat this new wave of insulting offers is to ignore them and steadfast as a community. It sucks, but one has to have principles and live by them.

I received a call not too long ago for a very low rate offer and politely said no as I chuckled. We talked a bit more and when the production was 1099 only, I told them that I would have to have workers comp coverage and was not willing to do so on my own policy for a below rate offer. Needless to say, they understood how physical my job was and how much was at stake for me to work without coverage, I got the rate up to a real rate which gave me the motivation to take the risk and cover myself with WC.

-Alfeo
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#11 Nicholas Davidoff

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:59 PM

Nick,

Wow, I would say that bridge was nuked! Guys, I don't think insulting people that can potentially hire you is going to help, no matter how idiotic the offers are. The best way to beat this new wave of insulting offers is to ignore them and steadfast as a community. It sucks, but one has to have principles and live by them.

I received a call not too long ago for a very low rate offer and politely said no as I chuckled. We talked a bit more and when the production was 1099 only, I told them that I would have to have workers comp coverage and was not willing to do so on my own policy for a below rate offer. Needless to say, they understood how physical my job was and how much was at stake for me to work without coverage, I got the rate up to a real rate which gave me the motivation to take the risk and cover myself with WC.

-Alfeo


It's nice that you were able to up your rate Alfeo. We all try and sometimes succeed. But where do you go from $100 a day? Crank it up to $150? $200 tops. Maybe some gas money?

Yeah, maybe I'm a bit harsh. But I find if you're sweet and friendly all the time you let yourself get stepped all over. Sometimes an in your face approach can really drive home your point to a clueless producer and maybe make them think a little. The "producers" responded to me and apparently I'm blacklisted from all these guys' future projects. A real tragedy. That's alot of $100 days I just missed out on. But in the end, I bet they'll think twice about publicly posting a lowball offer that hurts us all. They didn't see the harm in this. Maybe I'm missing something here?

And by the way, "Ignoring these offers as a steadfast community" is a fantastic idea, in theory. It would be awesome if we all stuck together and they couldn't find a single operator who would deal with them. But you know that's not the real world. What I've discovered lately is that there is no community here. Nobody is "sticking together". Maybe it used to be this way but not today. So while most of us choose the "stay silent" approach and ignore the problems of our industry, perhaps there's a few renegade operators who might stand up and take a little action and make they're voices heard and maybe inspire some little bit of change.

These "let's stick together" posts keep popping up every few months and they usually go nowhere. It's frustrating to see them all the time. In the past, I threw in my two cents to inspire some discussion and some action, but I got extremely minimal support. So I'll probably just let it go and keep myself out of these pointless discussions from now on. Hopefully others will have more success.
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#12 RonBaldwin

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:38 PM

Nick, you are desperately in need of a beer...and perhaps some (here it comes) Lisagav.

In all seriousness, politely saying no has always worked for me. You never know who will get a big break someday or has friends he will bad mouth you to. Unfortunately there are too many folks with steadicams (all sizes) and not nearly enough work for everyone. Producers know this...some know they get what they pay for but nowdays most don't seem to care. I'm not saying that the rediculous undercutting and abyssmal rates should just be accepted (though nothing will stop all of it) but maybe there are some constructive things that can be done? Maybe find out who these guys are that are taking these jobs and take them out to lunch and have a pow wow with them...invite them to a guild meeting (if there is no meeting, talk to David and help him organize one). Whining ranting and cursing at these guys will get you nowhere except hated...save that as a last resort. Then go Tonia Harding on them.

Ron
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#13 Nicholas Davidoff

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:15 AM

Nick, you are desperately in need of a beer...and perhaps some (here it comes) Lisagav.

In all seriousness, politely saying no has always worked for me. You never know who will get a big break someday or has friends he will bad mouth you to. Unfortunately there are too many folks with steadicams (all sizes) and not nearly enough work for everyone. Producers know this...some know they get what they pay for but nowdays most don't seem to care. I'm not saying that the rediculous undercutting and abyssmal rates should just be accepted (though nothing will stop all of it) but maybe there are some constructive things that can be done? Maybe find out who these guys are that are taking these jobs and take them out to lunch and have a pow wow with them...invite them to a guild meeting (if there is no meeting, talk to David and help him organize one). Whining ranting and cursing at these guys will get you nowhere except hated...save that as a last resort. Then go Tonia Harding on them.

Ron


Yeah, you're probably right Ron. No point in getting all emotional about this stuff. Too many ops, not enough jobs. Way it goes. Can't change it, just deal with it. I should be happy I'm getting by. Bring on the beer and the Lisigav!
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#14 Brian Freesh

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:17 AM

Hi Nick,

I don't know you well, but every time I've talked to you in person were positive experiences. I have found you to be a very pleasant, highly motivated person. I think I have proven that respect in my interactions with you. However, your posts of late often shock me. I'd like to address them openly and honestly in hopes of helping both of us understand each other, and hopefully encourage more of what you and I both want, discussion and solidarity.

Since none of your extremely negative posts are leading to positive action, perhaps you should try something else?

Your posts are often, at least every few months, as you remind us every time. All of the ones I can remember are in response to someone talking about the subject you are concerned with. Which means there are people talking about it, there is a community. If you don't see one, maybe you're not a part of it? I've witnessed you shoot down ideas by others. Where's your community spirit? A lot of us are trying. The people who aren't trying are for the most part not participating members on this forum. People come to this forum to be a part of a community, whether to contribute, to learn, or both. By and large everyone I've seen post on this forum has nothing but good intentions. Yourself included.

I see people ignore you because you're a whining jerk lately, not because they don't agree with your principals. I think it's safe to say everyone agrees we should be paid fair wages for our work. Can't imagine you'll find an argument to that.

I, for one, would love to discuss this with you more Nick. I expect I could learn a lot from you, as you are a far more successful operator than myself. I just think you've become so frustrated with this situation (and understanably so) that you're having trouble being proactive about it. Because to be honest, an aggressive complaint from time to time is not proactive, it's reactive. A negative reaction to a negative situation, nothing good can come of it.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I think we're all on the same team here, we just need to give each other a hand.

EDIT: Ron said it better.
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#15 BJMcDonnell SOC

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:57 AM

I haven't been on the forum in awhile but I must say that I am still proud that Lisigav lives on to this day. Ron, you keep the dream alive. Nick, I took the $100 dollar day job. It was amazing...........................................haha I kid I Kid!!! Yep I still hear to this day ops offering up the gear for free to get the job and also just taking the mega low low rate. It hurts us all you guys. I understand that newbies have to start somewhere but even when I was a newbie I still got at least 3 to 5 hundred for a half day on student projects. And trust me the student projects will work you harder than any studio pic out there with the steadicam.
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