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Hill vehicle mount vs. MSE 815510 hi-hat


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#1 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 10:33 PM

I'm stumped. Bought a used Jerry Hill Garfield mount, and a Matthews 815510 mitchel base hi-hat (from separate sources). Much to my surprise, they don't seem to fit together right. Long story short, the mount slides around the 3" center hole of the Mitchell plate and the screw that is supposed to fit in the keyway slips out. I would have thought there would be a snug and secure fit...

I'm mainly from the video world; my experience is mostly with ball heads. I never expected to see incompatibility between a major brand Mitchell hi-hat and a Hill mount. Am I missing something here? If my description is not clear please ask and I'll expand on it and try to post a picture or two.

Thanks!
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#2 Andrey Yazydzhi

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:49 AM

I'm stumped. Bought a used Jerry Hill Garfield mount, and a Matthews 815510 mitchel base hi-hat (from separate sources). Much to my surprise, they don't seem to fit together right. Long story short, the mount slides around the 3" center hole of the Mitchell plate and the screw that is supposed to fit in the keyway slips out. I would have thought there would be a snug and secure fit...

I'm mainly from the video world; my experience is mostly with ball heads. I never expected to see incompatibility between a major brand Mitchell hi-hat and a Hill mount. Am I missing something here? If my description is not clear please ask and I'll expand on it and try to post a picture or two.

Thanks!

Mark
Try to post pictures to demonstrate Your problem
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#3 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:59 AM

Here are some pictures.

First, the Garfield mount (underside) and tie-down. Diameter 7"
Second, the MSE hi-hat with what appears to be a typcial Mitchell plate (diameter 6 1/2")
Third, the mount sitting centered on top of the plate (tiedown omitted for clarity)
Fourth, the mount slid off to the side to illustrate how the retaining screw can slip out of the keyway

Note the raised center portion of the Garfield (with the four holes.) Diameter: about 2 7/8"). This mates to the recessed circular "shelf" in the Mitchell mount, which is 4 1/8" in diameter. Even if the mount is absolutely centered and the tiedown is cranked down tight, the retaining screw is right at the very outside of the keyway, due to the Garfield's larger diameter. If the mount were to slip off-center even the slightest (due to the 1 1/4 inch difference in the diameters of the parts that mate together). the retaining pin could slip out of the keyway entirely.

If this is the way these pieces are designed to work, I'm kind of surprised. Why wouldn't the raised center of the underside of the mount be machined to the diameter of the recess in the Mitchell base (4 2/8")? Why wouldn't the retaining screw holes be drilled closer to the center of the mount so that there was less chance of the pin disengaging the keyway if the mount slipped off-center?

Thanks in advance for help and clarification.

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#4 Sanjay Sami

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:46 PM

Hi Mark,

The Hi Hat you got from MSE is the wrong size. The standard for Moy / Mitchell bases varies a little bit, but it should be a minimum of 7 inches to a maximum of 7.25 inch. 6.5 inch is too small. Since you have bought both of these pieces, I can recommend 2 things. The first is to move the key on the garfield mount closer to the center. That way even if it shifts it will not rotate. The other is to make a new washer and lock combo for the garfield mount, which has a step milled into it that sits into the inner hole of the hi hat, so that when you tie it down, it cannot slide from side to side.

Hope that helps

Sanjay Sami
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#5 Andrey Yazydzhi

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:55 PM

Here are some pictures.

First, the Garfield mount (underside) and tie-down. Diameter 7"
Second, the MSE hi-hat with what appears to be a typcial Mitchell plate (diameter 6 1/2")
Third, the mount sitting centered on top of the plate (tiedown omitted for clarity)
Fourth, the mount slid off to the side to illustrate how the retaining screw can slip out of the keyway

Note the raised center portion of the Garfield (with the four holes.) Diameter: about 2 7/8"). This mates to the recessed circular "shelf" in the Mitchell mount, which is 4 1/8" in diameter. Even if the mount is absolutely centered and the tiedown is cranked down tight, the retaining screw is right at the very outside of the keyway, due to the Garfield's larger diameter. If the mount were to slip off-center even the slightest (due to the 1 1/4 inch difference in the diameters of the parts that mate together). the retaining pin could slip out of the keyway entirely.

If this is the way these pieces are designed to work, I'm kind of surprised. Why wouldn't the raised center of the underside of the mount be machined to the diameter of the recess in the Mitchell base (4 2/8")? Why wouldn't the retaining screw holes be drilled closer to the center of the mount so that there was less chance of the pin disengaging the keyway if the mount slipped off-center?

Thanks in advance for help and clarification.

Mark I use some old parts for my hard mount :

Attached Files

  • Attached File  001_.jpg   153.82KB   65 downloads

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#6 Andrey Yazydzhi

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:58 PM

Here are some pictures.

First, the Garfield mount (underside) and tie-down. Diameter 7"
Second, the MSE hi-hat with what appears to be a typcial Mitchell plate (diameter 6 1/2")
Third, the mount sitting centered on top of the plate (tiedown omitted for clarity)
Fourth, the mount slid off to the side to illustrate how the retaining screw can slip out of the keyway

Note the raised center portion of the Garfield (with the four holes.) Diameter: about 2 7/8"). This mates to the recessed circular "shelf" in the Mitchell mount, which is 4 1/8" in diameter. Even if the mount is absolutely centered and the tiedown is cranked down tight, the retaining screw is right at the very outside of the keyway, due to the Garfield's larger diameter. If the mount were to slip off-center even the slightest (due to the 1 1/4 inch difference in the diameters of the parts that mate together). the retaining pin could slip out of the keyway entirely.

If this is the way these pieces are designed to work, I'm kind of surprised. Why wouldn't the raised center of the underside of the mount be machined to the diameter of the recess in the Mitchell base (4 2/8")? Why wouldn't the retaining screw holes be drilled closer to the center of the mount so that there was less chance of the pin disengaging the keyway if the mount slipped off-center?

Thanks in advance for help and clarification.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  002_.jpg   175.25KB   60 downloads

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#7 Andrey Yazydzhi

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:59 PM

Here are some pictures.

First, the Garfield mount (underside) and tie-down. Diameter 7"
Second, the MSE hi-hat with what appears to be a typcial Mitchell plate (diameter 6 1/2")
Third, the mount sitting centered on top of the plate (tiedown omitted for clarity)
Fourth, the mount slid off to the side to illustrate how the retaining screw can slip out of the keyway

Note the raised center portion of the Garfield (with the four holes.) Diameter: about 2 7/8"). This mates to the recessed circular "shelf" in the Mitchell mount, which is 4 1/8" in diameter. Even if the mount is absolutely centered and the tiedown is cranked down tight, the retaining screw is right at the very outside of the keyway, due to the Garfield's larger diameter. If the mount were to slip off-center even the slightest (due to the 1 1/4 inch difference in the diameters of the parts that mate together). the retaining pin could slip out of the keyway entirely.

If this is the way these pieces are designed to work, I'm kind of surprised. Why wouldn't the raised center of the underside of the mount be machined to the diameter of the recess in the Mitchell base (4 2/8")? Why wouldn't the retaining screw holes be drilled closer to the center of the mount so that there was less chance of the pin disengaging the keyway if the mount slipped off-center?

Thanks in advance for help and clarification.

The best way for You will be to make a new small center disk ( that is with 4 hoies ) - 4 2/8" instead 4 1/8".

Edited by Andrey Yazydzhi, 08 August 2009 - 12:07 AM.

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#8 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:16 AM

Andrey,

Thank you for the pictures and replies. Your vehicle mount is very resourcefully-made.

Here are some pictures.

First, the Garfield mount (underside) and tie-down. Diameter 7"
Second, the MSE hi-hat with what appears to be a typcial Mitchell plate (diameter 6 1/2")
Third, the mount sitting centered on top of the plate (tiedown omitted for clarity)
Fourth, the mount slid off to the side to illustrate how the retaining screw can slip out of the keyway

Note the raised center portion of the Garfield (with the four holes.) Diameter: about 2 7/8"). This mates to the recessed circular "shelf" in the Mitchell mount, which is 4 1/8" in diameter. Even if the mount is absolutely centered and the tiedown is cranked down tight, the retaining screw is right at the very outside of the keyway, due to the Garfield's larger diameter. If the mount were to slip off-center even the slightest (due to the 1 1/4 inch difference in the diameters of the parts that mate together). the retaining pin could slip out of the keyway entirely.

If this is the way these pieces are designed to work, I'm kind of surprised. Why wouldn't the raised center of the underside of the mount be machined to the diameter of the recess in the Mitchell base (4 2/8")? Why wouldn't the retaining screw holes be drilled closer to the center of the mount so that there was less chance of the pin disengaging the keyway if the mount slipped off-center?

Thanks in advance for help and clarification.

The best way for You will be to make a new small center disk ( that is with 4 hoies ) - 4 2/8" instead 4 1/8".


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#9 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:37 AM

Sanjay,

Thanks for the info. I'm really surprised at the MSE (Matthews) hi-hat is so incompatible, since it's one of the "standard" studio equipment brands. In fact, this hi-hat is a premium design, costing double what a typical hi-hat does.

Your suggestions for workarounds are great. I'd hoped to avoid having to pay additional for a machinist to make modifications, but perhaps I should go ahead (sigh). It makes me wonder whether my vehicle mount will work with the Mitchell plates I might encounter on a dolly, etc.?

Hi Mark,

The Hi Hat you got from MSE is the wrong size. The standard for Moy / Mitchell bases varies a little bit, but it should be a minimum of 7 inches to a maximum of 7.25 inch. 6.5 inch is too small. Since you have bought both of these pieces, I can recommend 2 things. The first is to move the key on the garfield mount closer to the center. That way even if it shifts it will not rotate. The other is to make a new washer and lock combo for the garfield mount, which has a step milled into it that sits into the inner hole of the hi hat, so that when you tie it down, it cannot slide from side to side.

Hope that helps

Sanjay Sami


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#10 RonBaldwin

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:05 PM

doesn't look like a hi-hat to me...looks like a dolly riser.
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#11 Eric Fletcher S.O.C.

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:13 PM

doesn't look like a hi-hat to me...looks like a dolly riser.



You beat me to the punch, that's exactly what it looks like
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#12 RonBaldwin

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 01:51 PM

hi hat:
http://www.filmtools...d3keymithi.html
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#13 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 05:51 PM

Eric and Ron,

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I'm familiar with standard hi-hats, I've used 100mm ball head hi-hats for years with video and occasionally with 16mm film cameras. My experience with Mitchell mounts has primarily been with adapting a Mitchell plate on a dolly to a ball head.

In any case, I called this a hi-hat based on the description here, here, and on the ebay auction where I bought the item.

My mission is simply this: I have a Hill vehicle mount and a Mitchell plate, and they don't mate up like I understood they ought to. I need to understand where the mismatch is and either replace one or both items, or modify one or both items to work together, and to have a reasonable assurance that this mount will mate with the other hi-hats, dolly risers and so on that I may encounter. Has anyone used this hi-hat from MSE? If I ditch this unit and buy the traditional-type Mitchell hi-hat from Filmtools (or Alan Gordon or ....) will it work the way I expect it to? If I try to marry this Garfield mount to a dolly, will I have the same problem I am experiencing with this MSE unit?

You gents are both very experienced and I would appreciate any feedback you might be able to give me on my questions. Thanks.

hi hat:
http://www.filmtools...d3keymithi.html


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#14 Mark Schlicher

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:19 PM

Incidentally, I bought the Garfield mount from a Steadicam forum member who assured me it was a Hill mount, even though it is black and the current crop of Hill mounts are blue. Some of the details differ from the photos of current mounts, such as the holes on mine are larger. Was there perhaps a redesign? I guess I'll shoot an email to Jerry on that question.

hi hat:
http://www.filmtools...d3keymithi.html


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#15 Alec Jarnagin SOC

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:57 PM

Mark,

Cinema Products (the company that used to license the Steadicam name and manufacture them before they went under) sold that same vehicle mount in black. I believe Bob DeRose did as well. Regardless, all of them and the Hill version should be plug and play with any Mitchell mount. I suspect the problem is with your dolly riser.... errr, sorry, hi-hat. Buy a hi-hat from Filmtools and see if they work together. In the slim chance they don't, you should be able to return it.
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